“Oversight of Fraud and Misuse of Federal Funds in Minnesota: Part II”
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House Oversight and Government Reform U.S. House of Representatives
Follow its sittingsSpeaker 1
What we've uncovered in Minnesota is not a paperwork error or a few bad actors slipping through the cracks. It is a sustained failure of leadership. Governor Walton, attorney general Allison, were warned repeatedly. Auditors raised red flags. Employees sounded alarms.
Invoices didn't make sense, and still the money kept flowing. While state officials hesitated, billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from programs meant to serve children, the disabled, and families in crisis. While whistleblowers were silenced, fraudsters got rich. Accountability shouldn't begin only after federal prosecutors step in and clean up the damage. A company accountability should compel leaders to act, and here, they did not.
Today, this committee expects answers, and we expect an explanation for why it took federal law enforcement, not state leadership, to finally turn off the spigot. Before we proceed, I'd like to ask you now consent to enter the committee's interim staff report titled The Cost of Doing Nothing, How Tim Waltz and Keith Allison Fueled Minnesota's Fraud Explosion. End of the record. Without objection, so ordered. And with that, I now yield to the ranking member Garcia for his opening statement.
Speaker 2
Thank you, Chairman Kumar. I wanna thank, of course, the governor for being here today, the attorney general as well. And to Reverend Mariah Tolgaard, thank you so much for being here. I especially, though, wanna thank the Minnesotans that I know have traveled here to be with us today to witness this hearing, but also in solidarity of the horrors and terrors that are happening, not just in Minnesota, but that have happened across the country. Now we look forward to hearing directly about what life in Minnesota has been like thanks to the Trump administration's actions.
And the truth is that Donald Trump and Republicans have cut billions of dollars from health care and food assistance. That is a reality. Instead, with that money, they've used it to hire officers who are now terrorizing cities and killing Americans. That's where our taxpayer dollars have gone. We've taken food assistance.
We've taken from health care, and we superfund terror on American streets. Now Donald Trump has unleashed chaos against innocent Americans and across Minnesota, and we're going to talk about that today. Terror that has actually impacted real families and kids like Liam Ramos, who have been used, as we know, as bait. And we all know Liam's story really well. The reality is American citizens, innocent kids, people have been brutalized and ripped away from their families.
They've been thrown into detention centers with horrible conditions, that people are literally dying in these centers. Peaceful Americans have been killed by federal officers and agents and labeled as domestic terrorists or assassins by their own government. Where is the hearing and the outrage for those actions? Now Alex Pretty, as we all know, a VA nurse, was peacefully exercising his First and Second Amendment rights when he was pepper-sprayed, tackled, disarmed, and then shot repeatedly in the back. Renee Good, a mom who told an officer, and I quote, "I'm not mad at you," end quote, was shot dead just moments after.
And this pattern of violence and lawlessness we've seen, of course, all over the country. Now our committee and Democrats have documented over 590 cases of suspected misconduct by President Trump and Christie Nome's immigration and enforcement agents across the country, not just in Minnesota. There's been 240 incidents of violence or concerning use of force, and 181 have involved United States citizens. Now we've heard testimony that ISIS training has actually completely changed, and now it actually teaches our agents to violate the rights of American citizens. That's what we're teaching now to federal agents.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. DHS and ICE are out of control and must be held accountable by Congress. Now oversight Democrats have been partnering to hold hearings to investigate these abuses, to hold DHS secretary accountable. Steven Miller, Greg Bovino. And make no mistake, this is Donald Trump's personal police and military forces unleashing on the American streets.
Now the hearing that we have today is gonna build on those investigations. Operation Metro Surgeons, we're gonna hear a lot about today. This is really about not just what's happening in Minnesota through that operation, but the ways that President Trump has waged his own personal war in Minnesota. Instead of improving systems, of course, we're talking about fraud according to our Republican colleagues. But instead of improving systems to prevent future fraud, Trump's also cut off $259,000,000 in Medicaid funding to the state.
He's threatened federal food aid for 600,000 Minnesotans, including 200,000 kids. President Trump has tried to use fraud as his excuse for all of this. But what's really happening is violence, terror, death, destruction, and ripping away services from those who need it. You don't fight fraud by issuing presidential pardons to fraudsters. You don't fight fraud from ripping away food assistance to kids.
Now since his reelection, Trump has also given out jail-free cards to dozens of actual real fraudsters who could get out of repaying their victims more than $1,000,000,000. Where is the fraud hearing on those abuses? And we know that you just don't fight fraud by singling out states led by Democrats and ignoring states led by Republicans. Every single person here, and I know the governor and the attorney general believe this as well, we all want to fight fraud, waste, and abuse in government. Oklahoma, by the way, and Alabama lead the nation in SNAP fraud.
In Texas and Florida, a Russian citizen has been arrested for submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent claims and funneling millions overseas. Where are those hearings? Where's the governor of Oklahoma, or Alabama, or Texas, or Florida? I also want to note this. Because of the Trump administration's illegal and unconstitutional actions, we know there are now 31 of 64 lawyers at the Minnesota US attorney's office that have left.
That is stunning. The lead attorney responsible for pursuing these fraud cases has left because the Trump administration ordered them, if we know, to investigate Renee Goods' widow, not her killer. They were ordered to investigate Renee Goods' widow, not her killer. If the president cared at all about fraud, we would not have all of these officers with all this illegal behavior on the Minnesota streets. And we should remember that the Trump administration tried to use Operation Metro Surge as leverage to seize Minnesota's voter rolls.
The Trump administration was never serious about addressing fraud in Minnesota. Instead, they've been interested in election conspiracy theories, in terrorizing kids, and they've accused the governor and attorney general of covering up fraud, only to investigate them and turn up actually no evidence. What they're trying to do is convince Americans that there's a good reason for violence, for killings, and for violations of the law. That's not acceptable, and we're not gonna take that here today. I wanna thank our witnesses again for being here, and they yield back.
Speaker 1
Ranky member yields back. I'd like to welcome our witnesses. First, we have Tim Walz, governor of the state of Minnesota. Governor Waltz first took office in January 2019. Next, we have Keith Ellison, attorney general of the state of Minnesota.
Attorney General Ellison also first took office in January 2019. Finally, we have Reverend Mariah Furnace Tolgaard, senior pastor, Hamlin Church, United Methodist. Thank you all so much for joining us today, and we look forward to your testimony. Pursuant to committee rule nine g, the witnesses will please stand and raise the right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
So help you God. Let the record show that the witnesses answered the affirmative, and please take a seat. We appreciate you being here today, and look forward to your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statement. They will appear in full in the hearing record.
Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it's on, and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your five minutes have expired, and we would ask that you please wrap up.
I now recognize Governor Waltz for his opening statement. Governor.
Speaker 3
Thank you, Chairman Comer, Ranking Member Garcia, members of the committee. I'm proud to be here today as the governor of the great state of Minnesota. Under my leadership, Minnesota has dedicated its resources to ensuring that all Minnesotans can live dignified and full lives with access to top-notch public schools, quality health care, and good jobs. Thanks to these initiatives, Minnesota's been ranked as one of the best states to raise a family, one of the best states to find a job in, and one of the best states to live in. Although Minnesota's programs have overwhelmingly achieved their intended purposes, they are not immune from fraud.
I'll be the first to acknowledge that. But let me be clear. In Minnesota, if you defraud public programs, if you steal taxpayer money, we'll find you, we'll prosecute you, we'll convict you, and we'll throw you in jail. In this anti-fraud mission, we keep good company. Across the country, our nation's governors work hard every single day to combat fraud in their programs.
But even as we confront issues similar to our sister states, the people of Minnesota have been singled out and targeted for political retribution at an unparalleled scale, including blocking Medicaid reimbursements to our state just last week. Under the guise of combating fraud, the federal government has flooded Minnesota with masked, untrained, and unaccountable agents who are wreaking havoc in our communities. On the streets of Minnesota, federal agents have entered US citizens' homes who have committed no crimes. They have violated the constitutional rights of our citizens. They have ignored court orders.
They shot first and asked questions later. Time and again, they have gaslit us by demanding that we ignore what we see before our very eyes. But the American people are not so easily fooled. The image of this brutal campaign is seared into our collective memory. The fragile innocence of the five-year-old boy in a bunny hat being led away from his family.
The maddening cruelty of a barely clothed man, a US citizen being dragged from his house in the dead of winter. The sheer devastation we feel of seeing the lifeless bodies of Renee Good and Alex Pretty. Long after the federal government's agents of chaos pack up and leave, and long after the fraudsters in whose name this hearing was supposedly called are prosecuted and imprisoned, the good people of Minnesota will still be picking up the pieces from these senseless acts of cruelty and violence. As we forge ahead, I hope Minnesotans will remain grounded in a sense of justice, a sense of right and wrong. We know that the way to deter crime is to pursue offenders regardless of who they are, not to pardon them because of who they know.
We understand that a key to keeping our people safe is to allow prosecutors to uphold the law, not punish them for refusing to violate it. And we appreciate that public trust comes from building common sense anti-fraud safeguards into our programs, not by tearing down established norms. I've been invited here today to talk about how Minnesota pursues these objectives, and I hope we can have a conversation about how to strengthen program integrity in every state in the nation. A single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar we can't tolerate. That's why, as governor, I have taken decisive action.
I appointed a head of program integrity to oversee statewide anti-fraud efforts. I created the position of inspector general at the Minnesota Department of Education. At the Department of Human Services, I ordered data-driven reviews and, where appropriate, corrective action against providers. I've directed my administration to work with our partners in state, federal, and tribal law enforcement to make sure that fraudsters go to jail. Our cooperation with the FBI and the Department of Justice has led to serious criminal charges for over 75 individuals.
Most importantly, year in and year out, and long before Minnesota programs were featured on right-wing social media, I've worked with the Minnesota legislature to give state agencies the authority they need to take action based on red flags when they discover them. There's undoubtedly more to do. We'll continue to do the important work of combating fraud. But as we do so, we're gonna remain true to Minnesota principles. We will feed our hungry children.
We will help the poor afford health care. We will assist people with disabilities, while also keeping fraud in check. We'll demonstrate our decency, our integrity, and never yield to political scapegoating, particularly of our most vulnerable communities. In these extraordinarily trying times, the people of Minnesota have come together to show the world their values. I'm proud and honored to be their governor, and I look forward to today's questions.
Speaker 4
Thank you, Chairman Cole Comer, and thank you, Ranking Member Garcia. And thank you to all the members of the committee. My name is Keith Ellison, and I have the honor of serving as Minnesota's attorney general. You have invited me here today to speak about the topic I feel very strongly about: fraud enforcement. I look forward to discussing the contributions of my office, and the contributions we've made to fighting fraud in the state.
Fraud in government programs is reprehensible. It takes food from the tables of the hungry. It takes shelter from those without it. I have worked every day as attorney general to hold foresters accountable, and I'm proud of our record. We've won 300 Medicaid fraud convictions, more than any other state of similar size, and recovered over $80,000,000 for Minnesota taxpayers.
We've returned tens of millions of dollars to the victims of consumer fraud in Minnesota. Since 2019, our charities division has resolved over 50 investigations and dissolved 17 sham nonprofits. It's important to note that under Minnesota law, my office has limited jurisdiction over criminal matters. The only kind of criminal case we can prosecute on our own is Medicaid fraud. Any other kind of criminal case must be referred to us by county attorneys.
Still, we've punched above our weight where we do have criminal jurisdiction. I'm proud of that. Over the past six years, my Medicaid con fraud control unit has ranked fifth in the nation in fraud convictions. Last week, I urged the state legislators to pass a bipartisan medical assistance protection act, which would give us additional resources to prosecute Medicaid fraudsters. Where fraud occurs outside of our jurisdiction, my office has and will continue to assist our local and federal partners.
When our help is requested, we support our 87 county attorneys in Minnesota, and we regularly coordinate with federal investigators and prosecutors to combat fraud. That type of collaboration between enforcers at all levels of the government is essential in this fight. And that is why if we are to discuss law enforcement efforts in Minnesota, we cannot ignore the devastating effects of Operation Metro Search. As you know, the Trump administration, on the pretext of fighting fraud, unleashed over 3,000 masked, armed agents on the streets of Minnesota. And as a result, two US citizens were killed by federal agents, Renee Good and Alex Pretty.
Federal law enforcement still refuses to cooperate with us in investigating their deaths. Young, innocent children were detained and traumatized. Schools and businesses were forced to close, costing countless families their jobs, their livelihoods, their education, and costing our state hundreds of millions of dollars in economic damage. Operation Metro Surge did nothing to address fraud in the state. It harmed our economy.
It scarred our people, and it dealt a devastating blow to fraud enforcement in Minnesota. As a result of Metro surge, federal prosecutors' efforts to fight fraud in Minnesota have suffered a major setback. In the US attorney's office, six high-ranking attorneys resigned because the Department of Justice pressured them to investigate Rig Renee Goods' grieving widow. Eight more prosecutors then followed. The remaining staff should be spending their time prosecuting fraudsters and criminals.
Instead, they are drowning in immigration-related petitions resulting from operation Metro search. Mister chair, members of the committee, we cannot combat fraud without consistent messaging and support from our political leaders. All sides, Republicans and Democrats, the federal government and the states, must work together if we're going to win the fight against those who would steal from the public. We need our leaders to unite in that effort, not to use it as a political tool to score points. I stand ready and willing to work with the members of this committee to advance the cause of holding fraudsters accountable.
Now more than ever, we need coordinated, cooperative engagement across law enforcement if we are to achieve our goals. I look forward to your questions.
Speaker 1
Thank you, General. I now recognize Reverend Tolgaard for her opening statement.
Speaker 5
Chairman, ranking members, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I am the Reverend Mariah Tolgaard, and I serve as senior pastor at Hamlin Church United Methodist in Saint Paul, Minnesota. I come before you today in my personal capacity as a pastor, as a citizen, as a mother, an ordinary Minnesotan who has witnessed up close the fear and harm that Operation Metro Surge has inflicted on our state. The hearing today is about fraud in Minnesota, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has brought to the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rationale for deploying 3,000 federal immigration enforcement agents into our state in operations that target the most vulnerable among us, but are indiscriminately impacting all of us.
Let me tell you about what this looks like where I live. In my church, members have been afraid to come to worship, and have even postponed funerals. An elderly Hmong man in our city, a US citizen, was taken from his home in the freezing cold, wearing only his underwear and a blanket. ICE vehicles drive recklessly through our neighborhoods in packs of four to six, stopping people of color for proof of citizenship, including a local police officer. In Saint Paul public schools where my three daughters attend, nearly a quarter of students enrolled in distance learning because families were too afraid to leave their homes.
My eight-year-old struggles to sleep at night because she is afraid ICE agents might break into our house. At local elementary schools in Minnesota and across the country, students are practicing drills for what to do if ICE is near the school. Let that sit with you. American children are now practicing two kinds of drills at school, one for an active shooter, and one to protect themselves from their own government. That is not security.
That is a nation failing its children. This is happening to all of our neighbors in Minnesota. Every Minnesotan has stories that will stay with you. From hearing of someone hiding in a walking cooler or the back room when ice stormed into their workplace, to friends and family members being followed when dropping off their children at daycare. In Minnesota, we love our neighbors.
We care for one another. And because we believe that every person bears the image of God, we've built systems that reflect that belief. Free meals for all children, health care for families who need it, schools where every kid belongs. That's what love of neighbor looks like in action. This administration has targeted Minnesota because we live out our values of loving our neighbors.
These tactics aimed at undermining those values have not succeeded. When unidentified masked agents appeared on our streets, Minnesotans put on their own uniforms, and it said neighbor. Motivated by faith and conscience, we bought groceries for families in hiding. We paid rent. We drove the children to school.
We stood vigil at the mosques. We served as constitutional observers. We pledged to care for children if the parents were detained. We sang. We marched.
We prayed. As a pastor, I say to you, if you feel even a flicker of discomfort hearing these stories, pay attention to it. If you hear about children like Liam Ramos, if you saw the videos of the murders of Alex Pretty and Renee Good, if you know of workers arrested in the very restaurants where they serve federal agents their meals, if you understand that citizens and legal residents have been wrongfully detained, and something in you tightens, that is not partisanship, that is conscience. In my faith tradition, we call that the still, quiet voice, the voice of God. It's not too late to listen, to change our minds, our hearts, and our policies.
To the members of this committee and our leaders across government, the question I leave with you is simple. What are you willing to do about it? Your silence has a cost, and it is being paid right now by children who cannot sleep, families who cannot grieve, and communities that are hollowed out. To Americans across the country and those watching from home, and particularly to the families still too afraid to leave their houses. There are more people fighting for you than you know.
Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25, whatever you do for the least of these, you do unto me. History will tell its story about us, but long before then, our own souls will know whether we stood with them or turned away. No nation can build a true future on the terror of its own people. Security built on fear, security will shatter the first time it is tested. Only a community that chooses love of neighbor over fear will endure, and that is still within our power to become.
Thank you for allowing me to share our story. I am deeply proud to be a Minnesotan.
Speaker 1
Thank you. With that objection, majority whipped Tom Emmer from Minnesota and representative McCollum, also of Minnesota, are waived on to the committee for the purpose of questioning witnesses at today's committee hearing. Without objection, so ordered. And now, okay. I'd like to recognize Representative McCollum for UC.
Speaker 6
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to, for the record, have a unanimous request put in with the statement. Thank you.
Speaker 1
Without objection, so ordered. We'll now begin our questions, and chair recognizes the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Mister Jordan from Ohio.
Speaker 7
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, why didn't you tell the truth? Why didn't you just tell the truth about the Feeding Our Future program? This program, my understanding, received $3,000,000 the first year. Within a couple of years, was getting $200,000,000 of taxpayer money.
Whistleblowers raised concerns. As the chairman said, auditors raised concerns. Everybody raised concerns. 03/30/2021, the payments are stopped. And a little over a month later, the payments are restarted.
Why didn't you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments?
Speaker 3
Well, chairman, we did tell you, and feeding our future grew because of the pandemic. And.
Speaker 7
When you asked that question, I said, why didn't you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? The payments stopped because there were concerns, obviously. They wouldn't stop the payments. Then they restarted a month later. What was the reason for restarting the payments?
Speaker 3
My understanding was that the agency believed that the court had required them to make those payments.
Speaker 7
said the reason you restarted is because the court ordered you to do so. Is that right?
Speaker 7
Well, I think it is because the court did something that I just don't, I don't know if I've ever seen it. They issued a statement saying you were wrong in what you were saying. This is from the court. It says, feeding our future versus Minnesota Department of Education, correcting reports and statements by Governor Tim Walls concerning orders issued by the court. Here's what the judge says.
Governor Tim Walls told the media that the Minnesota Department of Education attempted to stop payments to FOF because of possible fraud, but that judge Gusman Gutman ordered payments to continue in April 2021. Next sentence. That is false. So you said something wasn't true. He further states this, Judge Guthman.
The court says this, Judge Guthman never ordered the Department of Education to resume payments defeating our future in April 2021 or at any other time. So I wanna know why you didn't tell the truth?
Speaker 3
Congressman, the attorneys at the Department of Education interpreted that differently. Both of those judges are no longer on the bench, and I think that interpretation.
Speaker 7
very first sentence, the first seven words. This is not some unnamed source talking to the New York Times. This is not some anonymous source talking to whatever your Minnesota Star Tribune or whatever your paper is. This is the court speaking. First sentence, first seven words.
Due to inaccurate statements by the governor, Ramsey County District Court judge has issued and authorized this following news release. That's pretty straightforward. So the court is lying?
Speaker 7
interpreter lying. Somebody's lying because you can't say the court ordered you to restart the payment, and then the court says we didn't order you to restart the payment. So either you're lying, or the court's lying. And I'm just asking you, which one is.
Speaker 3
it? I just simply know that the attorneys at the agency believed that it was a misinterpretation. And I would note that those statements.
Speaker 7
Were trying to hide behind the court, governor? Could that maybe be the reason why you issued the statements you did, and why the court had to do something you never see done before? They issue a press statement saying you're wrong. The governor is wrong. His statement is, their words not mine, false.
Could that be the reason?
Speaker 3
That was not the interpretation of the attorneys. And, you know, court or work. You can appeal those congressmen as you well know. I'm sure that.
Speaker 3
No. It's cert, it's about taking care of our people, which Minnesota does better than anyone else.
Speaker 7
Million. The behavior intervention program went from 3,000,000 to 400,000,000 in five years. The housing stabilization went from 2,600,000 to 104,000,000. The integrated community supports went from 4,600,000 to 170,000,000 in three years. And this is unbelievable what's happening, and you're trying to hide behind some pretend court order, some court order that didn't exist.
Governor, who's Casey Magin?
Speaker 7
I'll tell you. Mister Magin is a Somali American and a fraud investigator in the attorney general's office. And here's what he said. There was a perception that forcefully tackling this issue might cause a political backlash among the Somali community, which is a core voting block. Did that have anything to do with this whole fraud scheme that went on in your state, Governor?
Speaker 7
Only one telling the truth in the whole state. Mister Magin, who's a fraud investigator at the attorney general's office, says it's politics. The court says.
Speaker 3
Mister Magin. You asked me a question. I know. I'm asking, and I said no when you asked me the question.
Speaker 7
I'm saying Casey Magin said just the options. So the court's wrong, and Casey Magin's wrong. You're the only guy, right. How many people have been indicted in your state right now? Do you know, governor?
Speaker 7
You don't? 98 people have been indicted. You'd happen to know how many are Somali Americans?
Speaker 7
Do I. We shouldn't do that. But I'll, but Mister Megan is a Somali American who just said that the court, one of the concerns was this is a court voting block. And I just wanna know if you know how many of the 98 people have been indicted in your state are Somali.
Speaker 7
85% of the people indicted were Somali American, a key voting block. And I think that's what drove this whole thing.
Speaker 1
Gentlemen, yields back. Before I recognize the ranking member, it's my understanding. Mister Biggs, you seek recognition?
Speaker 9
Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have some UCs. Here you go. Biden clemency for convicted fraudsters met with outrage. Next one.
Biden's clemency and pardon list includes former elected officials. Next one. The drug dealers, thieves, and gang leaders granted clemency by Joe Biden. Next one. North Dakota judge blasts Biden for setting fraudsters free.
Next one. Victim shocked after Biden grants clemency to kids for cash. Who has the next one. Who has Joe Biden pardoned? Thank you.
Speaker 1
Mister, without objection. So ordered, Chair now recognized as ranking member Garcia from California.
Speaker 2
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I wanna thank, of course, our witnesses again for being here. Now, of course, over the past two months, countless brave Minnesotans have shared their stories of heartbreak and violence terror, not just with us and this committee, but with folks across the country. Peaceful protesters are being shot in the streets. Children have been snatched from their schools.
People dragged from their cars and tackled at work. And we know that parents, of course, have been missing work, and children have been missing school. Now, Reverend Tolgaard, I want the country to really understand the effects on kids. Are you seeing families who can't go to work, who can't go grocery shopping, and who can't take their kids to school, or the library, or the park because they're terrified to leave their home. Are you seeing that?
Speaker 2
And this includes, of course, U.S. citizens. Right? We're talking about also families, US citizen families, and kids who are United States citizens. Is that correct?
Speaker 2
Well, thank you. I wanna just show this image here. This is an image of some kids, including, by the way, Lee, one of Liam Ramos' classmates. These are kids that are being held at US detention centers and facilities. Now, Reverend Tolgaard, when children hear about thousands of kids being detained, reportedly almost 4,000.
That must be terrifying. Is that correct?
Speaker 5
That is absolutely terrifying for children to hear these stories and to fear that experience.
Speaker 2
Parents are scared of what's going to happen to their children. Would you say that is correct, also?
Speaker 2
Well, thank you. Now we're discussing the violence and mortality that's happened, and I wanna show another image that's kind of difficult, I think, to see, but I think it's important for the American public to continue to see it. Now this is the driver's seat of Renee Goods' car after an ICE agent shot her dead. Now, Reverend Tolgaard, our families in your community are afraid that this sort of horrific image could happen to them next.
Speaker 2
Are kids scared that this type of horrific image could happen to one of their parents?
Speaker 5
Kids like my own, kids like the kids in my church are afraid that that could happen to their parents when they speak out.
Speaker 2
And let's remember that an ICE agent specifically told a protester, have y'all not learned from the past couple of days? This is just two days after Renee Good was shot. That is being told to people on the ground in Minneapolis and across the country, across Minnesota, and it's not acceptable. We should be clear here. This violence does not make us safer.
It does not address fraud, waste, and abuse. It doesn't help families with health care, does not grow or build small businesses, and it certainly, as we're continuing to discuss, is not preventing the kind of fraud that Republicans are discussing today. Now, governor, can you walk us through specifically how Operation Metro Surge affected Minnesota's ability to investigate actual fraud?
Speaker 3
Well, thank you, Congressman. Well, first of all, as I've said, we've been partners with our federal partners, whether that be the FBI or the US attorney's office, which I will note was one of the premier US attorney's offices regardless of who they were appointed by. Right now, those lead investigators and, basically, that whole team have left that office. They've not been billed back in. The US attorney himself was in front of a federal judge yesterday, on contempt issues of that office not working together.
Now, look. We're gonna prosecute as we have every single person that's involved in fraud, but we can't do it alone. The attorney general's office is doing everything they can. He has consistently come and asked the legislature for form more money, more of the investigators he needs. But right now the backlog at the US attorney's office is being challenged by the federal courts.
It makes it more difficult for us to get those cases over to them. But the good news is the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is continuing to do those. We got a conviction this week. Those are things that will continue on. And while we need to put in all the safeguards, we need to, as you heard the attorney general's opening statement, if we partner together in this, our chance of defeating this fraud is that much higher.
But right now, it's stymied. There are no investigators over there. There are no US attorneys. The FBI has been decimated, and it's very difficult.
Speaker 2
And that right there, the American public needs to hear. I mean, it's completely outrageous what's happened to those that are actually trying to take on fraud in Minnesota and across the country. Those offices have been decimated, and there's no support. Not acceptable. And, governor, finally, there appears to be actually no evidence that ICE and DHS reign of terror in Minnesota that continues has actually prevented any fraud.
Is that your assessment, sir?
Speaker 3
Actively asked if you have folks who can help us, if you have folks who are good at forensics, if they can help us do this. We want you there, as we have for the last seven years that I've been governor. We partnered together and convicted people.
Speaker 2
Thank you. And with that, also, just for the record, wanna introduce our report as well. Today, the Democratic staff released it as well as far as it relates to this hearing and operation metro surge. So thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Speaker 1
Without objection to the order, chair now recognizes our majority whip, representative Emmer from Minnesota.
Speaker 10
Thank you, Chairman Comer. And, actually, thank you, Governor Walls and Attorney General Ellison, for appearing before the committee today. Gentlemen, let's see if we can agree on at least one thing today. Today's hearing is titled oversight of fraud and misuse of federal funds in Minnesota. Can we agree that this fraud is a serious thing, Governor Walls?
Yes or no? Can we agree on that?
Speaker 10
Because it's interesting that you and I agree that it's a serious thing considering the man sitting next to you. Your attorney general Keith Ellison, just two months ago, said, quote, this is a political matter. This is not a serious thing, end quote. Attorney General Ellison, is there an organized crime ring operating in Minnesota? I'll answer for you, sir.
Governor Walls believes there is an active crime ring in the state. In October, the governor said, quote, "we've got an organized crime ring in Minnesota." I think it's been going on for years. Moving on, Mr. Ellison. I, along with millions of Americans, have grave concerns over your alleged relationships with Somali fraudsters who have since been charged and convicted of federal crimes.
I'm sure you are aware that over 90% of the defendants charged in the Feeding Our Future fraud case are of Somali descent. In fact, you have personal knowledge of these people. There's a 54-minute audio tape of your meeting with these criminals in December 2021. And during your meeting, they complained to you about increased scrutiny of their nonprofits, and you told them, quote, of course, I'm here to help, end quote. It's on the Internet.
Anyone can listen to you say that. Since then, you claim you were not aware of their crimes in the February Feeding Our Future scheme, the largest pandemic fraud case in the nation. But just weeks after your December 2021 meeting, the FBI executed search warrants that you would never have requested in the Feeding Our Future fraud investigation. Now let's fast forward to September 2022, ten months after you met with the Somali fraudsters. Your office issued a press release stating, quote, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison and his office have been deeply involved for two years in holding Feeding Our Future accountable, end quote.
So, according to your office, sir, you have been deeply involved in the Feeding Our Future case since September 2020. That actually sounds like you are saying that at the time of your infamous meeting with the Somali fraudsters, you were already aware of the allegations of fraud. When you had this meeting in December 2021, did you know, sir, about the long-running FBI investigation in defeating our future? Yes or no?
Speaker 10
Reclaiming my time. When did you personally become aware of the FBI investigation? That's all I'm asking.
Speaker 4
Representative Emmer, as you know, I have addressed this issue many times.
Speaker 10
Alright. I have reclaiming my time. In that same meeting with the fraudsters, Mister Attorney General, you took aim at the Minnesota Department of Education. You stated that the Minnesota Department of Education had fought the nonprofit in very disgusting ways, in a very racist, xenophobic, and islamophobic manner. You actually asked for the names of all these folks who are just hung up and offered to call the Minnesota Department of Education to, quote, demand some explanations.
We now know that when you made these comments, the Biden DOJ was working with the Minnesota Department of Education, and that their work exposed the massive fraud ring. Pretty bad look for you, sir. Either you were oblivious to what was going on under your nose, or worse, you were trying to obstruct the work of the Minnesota Department of Education. So I can see the time is getting short. I, mister chairman, we are left with two questions.
One, what did Governor Walls and Keith Ellison know about the fraud? And two, when did they actually know it? I would suggest that if they do not give direct and truthful answers to both these questions at this hearing, then they both need to be put under oath in a deposition. This is a serious thing, Mr. Attorney General. You are the only one who thinks protecting taxpayer dollars is political.
Mister Ellison, my concern is that you actively obstructed this investigation in exchange for campaign donations, a quid pro quo. If these concerns are proven to be true, you should be disbarred, and you should go to jail. I yield back.
Speaker 1
Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes Miss Norton from Washington DC.
Speaker 11
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is critical that the federal government support people who need assistance with food, housing, and health care. Unfortunately, as long as the government provides these services, there will be bad actors trying to take advantage of them. We need to prevent and identify these fraudsters, so that social services can reach those who need them. However, we cannot recklessly deny help to many people who need services because of a few bad actors.
My Republican colleagues have now held two hearings to talk about fraud in one state, but they have completely ignored the fact that the Trump administration is the most corrupt administration in history. If Republicans really cared about fraud, abuse, and holding criminals accountable, they would call them out. Donald Trump for firing 17, inspector general. These internal watchdogs are the front line of rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse in federal agencies. The Trump administration has also retaliated against whistleblowers and allowed administration officials to engage in serious conflicts of interest that often cross the line into outright fraud, outright corruption.
We need inspectors general, whistleblower protections, and rules prohibiting conflicts of interest to protect federal programs and make sure that people can get the services they need. Across the country, Americans are struggling to afford their health care premiums and groceries. The Trump administration should be strengthening the social safety net, not cutting the safeguards that catch the fraudsters taking advantage of it, and I yield back.
Speaker 1
Good lady yields back. I'll now recognize myself for five minutes. Governor Walts and attorney general Ellison, my questions are going to be simple and direct. Governor Walts, you were inaugurated as governor on 01/17/2019 and have served in that role through two terms ever since. Correct?
Speaker 1
During the time period 2019 and 2020, while you were serving as governor, isn't it true that state auditors and officials raised concerns about fraud and vulnerabilities in programs overseen by your administration? I can't confirm that, but I'm assuming.
Speaker 1
That is a yes. Those warnings were communicated to senior officials in your administration, including yourself. Correct?
Speaker 1
The correct answer to that would also be yes. Despite those warnings, you did not order a broad stop payment or suspension of payment in any program at that time. Correct?
Speaker 3
We're not going to stop payments that feed children until we have the proof that things happen. In 2019, we did start taking action. I went to the legislature.
Speaker 1
That legislation. Waltz, when fraud concerns were raised early in your tenure in the child care assistance program, did your administration stop payments at that time?
Speaker 1
You've already answered the question. You said you didn't stop payments, and that's what the problem is, and that's what the Democrats are complaining about. Oh my gosh. Trump stopped payments. Well, my God.
You've lost billions to fraud in Minnesota. That's what I'm just hearing about. Chairman. You didn't stop payments because you didn't want to rock the boat. And when fraud concerns raised chairman.
When fraud concerns were raised in Medicaid, home and community-based services, did your administration stop payments? No. You did not. When fraud concerns were raised in non-emergency medical transportation, did your administration stop payments?
Speaker 3
Chairman, if I could mention what a stop payment meant by what the administration did last week, it is 400,000 children without health care. Are you stopping payment for one person?
Speaker 1
We believe that's your fault and the attorney general's fault because you do nothing about fraud, even though everyone in America sees.
Speaker 1
Fraud. You have been defrauded. You have not been good stewards of taxpayer dollars. And the Democrat position is, well, keep the money flowing. The American taxpayers have had enough.
Speaker 1
But if you're gonna waste the money to fraudsters, then we have to stop and recalculate.
Speaker 3
We're not. We're putting them in jail when we can, chairman. And some of these programs are crafted in such a way that there's a procedure to follow. And I'm with you. I $1 is too much.
I don't think there's a lot of difference here if you want to help us get at this. The question is, is it a sledgehammer? Is it a scaffold? I understand there's no political upside.
Speaker 1
Let's get into what we've talked. You eventually did pause payments in certain programs, but that wasn't until late 2025 after the federal government stepped in. Is that correct?
Speaker 3
I don't think that's a fair characterization of stepped in. We've been partners in this and working on them, but.
Speaker 1
let's move on. And that decision occurred only after large scale fraud had already taken place for years. Now, Governor Walt, employees inside state agencies raised concerns about fraud and improper payments for years. Is that correct?
Speaker 1
yes. They have raised concerns. Agencies have raised concerns about fraud in Minnesota. Correct. Each of those.
Speaker 1
So some of those employees faced retaliation after raising those concerns. Is that correct?
Speaker 3
That is not correct, chairman. Okay. Minnesota has strong whistleblower protections.
Speaker 1
Attorney General Ellison, you are the chief legal officer of the state of Minnesota. Correct? Yes. Your office advises agencies on compliance with federal and state laws. Correct?
Yes. Retaliation against whistleblowers reporting fraud is unlawful. Correct? That is right. At any point during your tenure, did you tell state agencies to stop payments due to credible fraud allegations?
Yes or no?
Speaker 1
predict as a drop in the bucket. But you've never said to stop payments.
Speaker 1
Well, you have one of the highest fraud rates in the country, in Minnesota. That's.
Speaker 4
Not true. And my office doesn't have the authority to do a stop payment. We prosecute criminals when they're presented to us by the agents.
Speaker 1
So the answer is no. Unfortunately, no one's ever from your office said to stop payments until we can get the fraud under control. So, to summarize, you both knew about fraud risk, and payments continued. Our investigation has shown that whistleblowers who were alerted about the widespread fraud were ignored, sidelined, and even retaliated against. Only after federal authorities ultimately stepped in, did you take any action.
It's not this committee's responsibility to decide guilt or dole out punishment. But it's clear there was a massive failure of oversight, and, quite frankly, a failure of leadership. One wonders whether either of you should bear some personal responsibility for the billions of dollars siphoned off by fraudsters under your noses in the state that you led. Again, this isn't for the committee to decide, but based on your answers today and apparent failure to take any responsibility, still, the answer to that question has become abundantly clear. And now.
Speaker 13
Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record 11/12/2025 article from ProPublica entitled how Trump has exploited pardons and clemency to reward allies and supporters, which shows President Trump rewards those in his good graces. I also seek recognition to insert into the record a Washington Post article from 12/19/2025 entitled Trump's pardons wipe out payments to defrauded victims, which shows that President Trump lets criminals and fraudsters walk free. And I also seek unanimous consent to enter into the record an article from 05/29/2025 from ABC News titled Trump's flurry of pardons includes some champion contributors.
Speaker 1
And, miss, Presley, we'll do one at a time. We'll go to Mister Lynch, then I'll recognize you. Mister Lynch from Massachusetts.
Speaker 14
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you, my friend. Attorney General Allison, good to see you again. Reverend, thank you for your willingness to testify before the committee. I wanna shift gears here a minute, and I wanna focus on ice.
So I was recently asked to serve as the co-chair of the five for twenty-six soccer tournament. It's a global tournament, the largest sporting event in the world. And my home city of Boston has been asked to host a lot of the games. In Boston, we're gonna host teams from Morocco, Ghana, Bolivia, Iraq, Scotland, France, England, and Suriname. We'll also host over 3,000,000 foreign national visitors who are coming into Boston for these tournaments.
And, we recently learned from the Trump administration that ICE will play a key role in the security operations during the games. So we've got all these people flying in foreign nationals from a lot of different countries, South America, and elsewhere. Governor, since you've had direct and relevant experience on dealing with the metro surge and the security operations of ICE. I was interested in getting your thoughts and your observations and any recommendations you might have to help us with confronting our experience or what we expect to see during these games with ICE coming in as well as so many foreign visitors? Well, I think the world saw, and don't take my word.
Speaker 3
For it, take professional law enforcement across Minnesota and across the country. The most unprofessional aggressive force that I think you could imagine. And I was here in front of this committee and answered all your questions on June 12. And I warned this committee what a masked group of folks turned loose in an American city could do. And I'm not if I'm not mistaken, I said someone could get killed doing this.
And I just wanna be very clear about this. When Tom Holman had to come in to clean up the mess of secretary Nome and Greg Bovino, secretary Holman himself acknowledged Minnesota follows the law exactly as I told you in this committee. So my advice to you, Mister Lynch, is to get very public upfront commitments from these folks. While I disagree with mister Holman's views on many things, he's at least professional enough that he pulled the leash back and pulled these folks out of Minnesota after, again, misrepresenting the number of people they were detaining, misrepresenting before he got there exactly what Minnesota did. And I'm just gonna name it accountability.
The secretary of DHS being chastised by Republican senators added insult to injury to Minnesota, pouring salt in the wounds of the parents of Alex Pretty and Renee Goods' family by not even apologizing or acknowledging. And if you want accountability for one of the times, as far as I know, the attorneys know better. We are not being included in the investigation. And the actions that were taken of a gentleman who was shot in the leg was the night that Christie Nome called me a domestic terrorist and said that this gentleman was attacking federal agents. Well, now we know the story.
They lied. They are now under investigation, they being the federal agents. So, look, I'm with you. I want your help on fraud. Why would I not want money to go to the programs I care deeply about?
Feeding people, clothing people, housing people. But what ICE did disrupted everything that we were doing. It disrupted our federal partners, and it forced our law enforcement agencies who have worked hard to gain the public trust to have the public believe in them. So my advice to you is, and especially when the world's coming to see this, let Boston's finest lead. Let the people of Massachusetts lead.
Let the Tenth Amendment stand for something, and allow us to be able to do this. The people of Minnesota will hold us accountable if they don't feel we're doing a good enough job. But to demonize and retribution against a state, in the words of the president, in the words of the vice president, has done nothing. So, Lynch, the world should be looking forward to coming, but I would get it up front, and I would make sure that Boston's police department is in the lead.
Speaker 14
Thank you, Attorney General Ellison. We need coordination between law enforcement agencies. It's a big job. What are your views on that likelihood of cooperation from ICE?
Speaker 4
Well, I hope you get the cooperation that you need. In Minnesota, we don't have a good record of cooperation, which is interesting because so many times in the past, we have had great cooperation between local federal enforcers and local state ones, and we've just worked seamlessly. Nowadays, that has all changed, and that's quite unfortunate.
Speaker 15
Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter to the record a February 2026 letter from 200 state lawmakers urging Congress to exercise its oversight authority and demand the administration immediately restore full childcare funding that it had frozen for four or five states.
Speaker 1
Without objection, it's ordered. Chair recognizes Dr. Fox from North Carolina.
Speaker 16
Thank you, mister chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here. Governor, you've reminded people that you were here last June. At that time, I reminded you that the Feeding Our Future scam made Minnesota ground zero for the largest COVID-19 fraud scheme in the nation. 250,000,000 of federal taxpayer funds were taken out of the mouths of hungry children. And as the FBI noted, they were, quote, funneled into luxury homes, cars, and lavish lifestyles, while families struggled.
You assured me then that you wholeheartedly supported the federal government's effort to bring those responsible to justice. I appreciate your sentiment, but a person's actions matter more than their words. Governor Waltz, when did you first become aware of the fraud in feeding our future? A specific date, please.
Speaker 3
Well, congressman, it's good to see you. And having served in your job for twelve years, I can tell you my job is a little different as governor for 7 years. I take a lot of meetings. I certainly wouldn't specifically state, but I think during that pandemic, I think by late 2020, we started to see the irregularities. They were flagged.
And I will note, we cooperated.
Speaker 3
So you're asking when I, in my office, the governor became good, and I don't have a specific date. But what I would say is we provided witnesses, documents, the US attorney and the FBI, and 79 of those people have been prosecuted going back to 2022.
Speaker 16
K. Well, when I was chair of the committee on education and workforce, I issued you a subpoena in September 2023 because you and your administration were not forthcoming about how your administration, quote, failed to identify what has been described as the largest pandemic fraud in the nation, end quote. In September 2024, you are aware of the Feeding Our Future fraud and your administration's handling of it. Correct? Yes or no?
Speaker 3
2024? Yes. By that time, we had already put people in jail and had extensively investigated.
Speaker 16
This committee has testimony that the Minnesota Department of Education briefed your office about the Feeding Our Futures draft lawsuit litigation hold on 04/28/20. That let me jog your memory. Is that correct?
Speaker 16
April 2020. That means Feeding Our Future received a total of over 200,000,000 in federal funds after you and your administration knew about the fraud concerns. Why didn't you stop sending money defeating our future as soon as the fraud concerns were raised?
Speaker 3
Congresswoman, as following the program, we notified USGA under the Trump administration's first term. We notified them too because it's a program administered out of the USDA, and they were working to work through the process. Eventually.
Speaker 16
Well, that's what we understood. You were afraid of political retaliation. So given the size and scope of the Feeding Our Futures fraud, I think you and your administration would have been on high alert looking for additional fraud in the state. But after seeing the handling of Feeding Our Futures and its 250,000,000 in fraud, it came as no surprise to learn that even more staggering amounts of fraud, estimated at up to $9,000,000,000, were uncovered in the child care assistance program, the Minnesota Medicaid program, other programs. How could you allow such massive fraud schemes in your state to get to this point?
Speaker 3
Congresswoman, we don't see anything by 9,000,000 local press, everyone reports it about 300,000,000. But as I've said, if it's $1, it's too much. But we started in 2019 putting anti-fraud programs forward. After feeding our future, we started going through and making sure every program had the integrity in it that it needed. And that's why you see convictions.
Speaker 16
That's why you see these convictions. Take nearly seven years for you to get engaged to stop the fraud? Seven years.
Speaker 3
We started in 2019, congresswoman. It may be a surprise. If you arrest someone for stealing a car, other people are still gonna try to steal cars. What we've tried to do is bring program integrity, but I'll go back to this. We're not gonna shut down programs that have things that are going well in them, and we need to find that proper balance.
And I've acknowledged that every year, we're putting things in place, and inspector.
Speaker 16
Governor Walts. Governor Walts. You did not do your job. You did not do your job. You did not protect taxpayer dollars.
You allowed massive fraud. You and Mr. Ellison allowed massive fraud to go on in the state of Minnesota. And it is unfortunate, somebody said, that you can't be held personally responsible at this stage of the game. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Speaker 1
Gentle lady yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. Christian Morte from Illinois.
Speaker 17
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Governor Wallace, you've seen firsthand the brutal, excessive force used by ICE and CBP agents in Minnesota. Unfortunately, we saw the same tactics employed in Chicago during Operation Midway Blitz. I wanna turn now to ICE and CBP's horrific pattern of abuse. Secretary Nome went to our cities ostensibly under the guise of arresting, quote, the worst of the worst.
But in Illinois, less than 3% of those arrested during Operation Midway Blitz had criminal histories. In Minnesota, the vast majority of those detained had never been in trouble with the law. Correct?
Speaker 17
There were also more than 170 cases this year where ICE and CBP detained U.S. citizens. US citizens should never be detained by ICE. Correct? That is correct. According to.
Speaker 17
Well, I hope so too. According to the Chicago Sun-Times, federal agents have pepper sprayed children, including this one-year-old baby in Chicago. And children should never be pepper-sprayed. Right?
Speaker 17
And according to The Independent, CBP agents dragged a 67-year-old US citizen out of his car, breaking his ribs and causing internal bleeding. No person should be subjected to that kind of treatment. Right?
Speaker 17
Let me turn to another topic. In president Trump's second term, ICE has become America's highest-funded federal law enforcement agency with a budget of more than $85,000,000,000. If ICE were an army, this budget would make it the 13th largest army in the world. Let's look at where that money has gone. Last year, DHS spent $172,000,000 on two private luxury jets for Secretary Nome.
I assume you're not aware of a stop payment on that particular payment. Right?
Speaker 17
Sir. Republican senator John Kennedy yesterday grilled secretary Nome about a $220,000,000 ad campaign featuring her prominently, including on this horse in front of Mount Rushmore. Secretary Kennedy suggested this was wasteful spending, and I agree. I assume you'd agree with that as well. Right?
I do. This gross misuse of funds must end now, and Secretary Nome must be held accountable. Not tomorrow, not next week. Now. Chicago was ground zero for Secretary Nome's overreach when she launched Operation Midway Blitz.
Chicago media reported that ICE and CBP agents had pepper sprayed a one-year-old baby, shot at a pastor, harassed seniors, tased US citizens, and even killed a person. It's clear that Midway Blitz was never intended to make Chicago safer. In December, ICE and CBP began Operation Metro Surge in Minnesota. Over 3,000 agents were sent to one state. There were military style raids at child care centers, children kept home from school, adults postponing medical care.
In Minneapolis, Renee Good and Alex Pretty, both US citizens, were fatally shot by federal officers. It's clear that Operation Metro Surge was never intended to make Minnesota safer. But this is not isolated to just Illinois and Minnesota. Inside detention centers across the country, the suffering continues. Detainees report physical and sexual abuse, medical neglect, and pressure to self-deport.
On top of that brutality, Christy Nome is misusing funds to buy private jets and enrich her associates. Christie Nome is testifying in the House Judiciary Committee today, but she must come before this committee to explain the rampant corruption and waste within her agency. DHS is out of control. There is no congressional oversight. I was denied entrance to ICE facilities twice in Illinois.
There's no accountability. Secretary Nome has still not appeared before this committee, nor has she responded in a substantive manner to more than a dozen letters I've sent her. There are no consequences. Nome is still the leader of DHS despite regularly breaking the law and abusing her authority. Secretary Nome must answer for her wrongdoing.
For Jaime, my State of the Union guest, who raises his little sister after his father was coerced into self-deportation. For Chicagoan Marimar Martinez, who was shot five times. For my constituent Evelyn, an 18-year-old US citizen who was wrongfully detained by ICE, for Renee Good, Alex Pretty, and Silvio Viegas Gonzalez, and all the other victims of ICE and CBP, for the American people. It's for all those reasons that, mister chairman, pursuant to clause 2 k 6 of house rule 11, I move to subpoena Christie Nome to testify before the house committee on oversight and government reform. This is for every family impacted by Christie Nome's terror campaign.
They demand answers, and so do I.
Speaker 1
A motion in May has been made. The committee will hold this motion in advance, until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with today's hearing, and I wanna remind everyone, I believe Christie Norm's testifying in front of the Homeland Security Committee in the house today after testifying in the senate yesterday. Chair, before I recognize Mister Cloud, I believe Mister Higgins has a UC.
Speaker 12
Yes, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an interview from 2024, December 2024, the Minnesota Star Tribune with governor Wallace, noting the federal investigation into the early intensive developmental and behavioral intervention program, the EIDBI program serving autism patients since its first year of inception in 2017, growing from 1.7 million per year to over 400 million per year. Unanimous consent.
Speaker 18
Thank you, chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. This hearing was designed to be a hearing looking into the massive expansion of some of the social programs and the fraud that was contained therein. But, Reverend Tolgaard, I was struck by part of your opening statement because you invoked Matthew 25, and that's a scripture we see tossed around a lot up here, but often without context. And so I went and got my Bible and thought we'd dig into Matthew 25 for a minute.
The scripture you invoked was Matthew 25:35 through 40. It ends with this. It says, then the righteous will answer him. Lord, when did we see you hungry, feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you sick or in prison, and come to you? And the king will answer to them, truly I say to you, to the extent that you did one of those brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did this to me. I would ask you, who's the you in that passage?
Speaker 5
Thank you for your question. You meaning all of us, followers of Christ.
Speaker 18
Followers of Christ. Right. In Matthew twenty four three, it says, after Jesus was sitting on the mountain of olives and the disciples came to him privately, and then they asked him that began this whole chapter. Now, what Christ didn't say was to lobby your government. He said, if you have, you give.
That's the general biblical principle here. You know, Second Corinthians chapter nine gives us probably the best scriptural understanding of what charity is. It says, each of you should give what you've decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Would you say that taxes are under compulsion?
Speaker 18
In trouble. I would say that's under compulsion. So if we're talking about what charities, I'm always amazed in DC how much we get to define our personal worth as a politician or statesman or whatever you wanna call us by, how much of other people's money we give away. And so there's certainly a place for a social safety net potentially, but the idea that Matthew 25 is kinda used as a blanket statement, as a matter of fact, the parable that it gives right before that scripture that you go into is the parable of the talents where you see someone, a business owner go away and he leaves three employees in charge and gives them each a bit of investment. And two of them turn their investment into a profit, and one that does not turn it into a profit does nothing with it, just sits on it.
What does he call him? You're a pastor. Right?
Speaker 18
Because I'm a wicked and lazy servant. And so, you know, scripturally speaking, God expects us to do something with what he's given us. Now, Romans 13 talks about the purpose of the government. You know, scripture is replete with different institutions that each have a different thing. The primary job is raising our kids and taking care of our families and the institution of the family.
The government has a different one. It says, for the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid. For the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servant, steering agent of wrath on the wrongdoer.
Would you say that someone who commits fraud is doing wrong?
Speaker 18
As the eighth commandment says, thou shalt not steal. Would you recommend that someone in your church go into debt to give an offering? No. Okay. So we have a massive program of fraud that's being paid for by the taxpayers.
It's not really us paying it. It's really our kids and our grandkids that are paying for it. And yet, we continue to see this massive expansion all under the taken out of context of what charity is being defined as. You know, it's interesting. I find it odd that the left continues to bring it Matthew 25 because at the very beginning of that, right before he goes in that scripture that we talked with, it says, Matthew 25:32, all the nations will be gathered to him, and he will separate the people from one another as sheep and goats.
He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on the left. And the king will say to those on his right, come in, you are blessed of the father, take your inheritance in the kingdom. And those on his left, he will say, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. You know, so, I would caution those who begin to use Matthew 25 to do so in the proper context, understanding that we have multiple biblical institutions, and they each have a purpose.
Speaker 18
Mister chairman, I'd like to submit the entirety of Matthew 25 into the record.
Speaker 1
I haven't recognized yet, mister. Would does anybody object to mister Cloud? Without objection, so ordered. Now I'll recognize Miss Randall.
Speaker 13
Thank you, Mr. Comer. I'd like to enter into the record an article from the Huffington Post. Yesterday, troops were being told Trump's been anointed by Jesus to cause Armageddon in Iran.
Speaker 1
Without objection, so ordered. What we do want, let's recognize mister Khan, and then I'll get mister Waukechal. Mister Khaner from California.
Speaker 20
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Waltz, when I went to Minneapolis and was at Alex Pretty's memorial, I was struck by the people there. I expected a lot of folks who were immigrants, and I expected, or folks who were children of immigrants, who looked brown like me. And there at the memorial were fourth- and fifth-generation Minnesotans. Most of them, white Americans, talking about how they face tyranny, how when they go to church, they were being followed by ICE agents.
When they go to give a meal to an immigrant, they were followed by agents. And I just had so much hope for our country seeing them there. And I wanna thank Minnesota as a Californian, as someone who grew up in Pennsylvania, as an American, for their character, for their courage, for what they have modeled in a multiracial democracy. And my question for you, I mean, having served as a congressman, a governor, what is it about Minnesota that we can learn? What is it that leads to this kind of inclusive feeling about immigrants in our nation?
Speaker 3
Well, thank you, Congressman, and thanks for your work on many fronts. Look. I think Reverend Tolgaard summed it up in getting at the heart of this. It's about the neighborliness and the care. And left to our own devices.
I'm gonna make the case. Minnesota, and by the way, I would remind folks, states have to balance their budgets. We're triple A bond rated, one of the states that's ranked the highest. We have a surplus, and we also have the highest rainy day funds, one of the strongest protections. So we understand fiscal responsibility, but we also understand this caring, this neighborliness.
People saw their neighbor. I believe our politics can change with that idea of what the next-door neighbor looks like. Now I will have to tell you, mister Khanna, I was deeply concerned last year when the vice president of The United States mentioned he can understand why people want to live by somebody who's not like them, which seems to go against our entire ethos in Minnesota, whether it was the first wave of Norwegian and Swedish immigrants that came to Minnesota, German immigrants like my family, or whether it was Hmong coming after the Vietnam War or Somali and other East African immigrants to our country. And I think it's this sense of working together. There's a reason that we rank at the top in health care.
We rank at the top in personal income. We rank near the top in homeownership. We rank near the top in happiness. Because this idea that we're all in it together, and that we believe everybody should have a chance. So I think it's an ethos, and it gets into our politics on the secular side.
I believe as an elected official that I shouldn't give a sermon, but I should attempt to live one. And one of our politicians, Paul Wellstone, talked about we all do better when we all do better, and that's what we do. And I know that is true to a certain degree in other states, but I see folks making the claim that, well, you wouldn't have any fraud if you just cut all these programs, if you just zeroed them out. That is true. If we did not provide food for our children, no one would steal from the program.
But there would also be a lot of hungry children. And what I'm asking for and acknowledging the accountability, we need to put program integrity in. So I think it's a neighborliness. I think it's a historical point about caring for your own, and I think it's a clear understanding that if your neighbor does better, you're going to do better.
Speaker 20
Well, thank you, Governor. And, obviously, fraud matters and budgets matter, but what really matters right now in this country is values. And I really appreciate your sharing that. Attorney General Allison, in the brief time I have, you know, I just want to be clear about Somali Americans because when I was growing up as an Indian American, anytime someone who was of Indian origin did something wrong, every Indian American was concerned. You know?
And I don't think people understand that if you aren't a minority, how that makes you feel. I understand there were 80 or 90 people who were Somali Americans who were involved in this, but there are 100,000 Somali Americans at least in Minnesota. And, statistically, from all the studies I've seen, it is just factually untrue that Somali Minnesotans or Somali Americans commit more fraud than white Americans, Indian Americans, or other Americans. And could you just speak to this, because it is so dangerous? And I don't even think on the other side, people are doing that on purpose.
But if you aren't an immigrant, if you haven't lived that or that as a child of immigrants, you don't know what that makes you feel. And can you talk about the Somali experience in Minnesota?
Speaker 4
No. The reality is the Somali community in Minnesota has brought great things to our state. They have opened businesses. They've got professional degrees. They are great neighbors who volunteer and help their neighbors.
They have been a benefit to our state. If you pick out a few people who've done wrong, sure, you can do that. But I can guarantee you, you can do that in any ethnic group at all in the state of Minnesota or anywhere in America.
Speaker 1
Alright. Before I recognize Mr. Higgins, I'll recognize Mr. Walkinshaw for unanimous consent.
Speaker 21
Thank you, mister chairman. And first, I just wanted to make a quick correction. You said Secretary Nome is before the Homeland Security Committee today. That's not true. I'm a member of the committee.
She was with us a couple of months ago.
Speaker 21
Not scheduled. With that, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record of 09/22/2025 article from Reuters titled Trump aide homin accepted $50,000 in bribery sting operation, which shows the Trump administration is willing to cover up blatant corruption of its.
Speaker 1
Without objection to the order, Chair now recognizes Mister Higgins from Louisiana.
Speaker 12
Thank you, mister chairman, gentlemen, ma'am. Thank you for being here today. Governor, when you took office, this fraud had already begun. Is that an accurate assessment?
Speaker 12
So what we're trying to get our heads wrapped around here as a nation, and we're doing our best as a committee. I'm quite certain on both sides to just sort of focus our attention on what needs to be focused on. You had massive fraud in the state of Minnesota. And when we started looking into wage, fraud, abuse, and theft across the country, Minnesota surfaced as a wow moment for the entire country. So, naturally, you know, we look as a citizenry to, well, who's in charge there?
And my old friend, governor Waltz, is in charge. And the truth is this fraud had begun before you took office. So it's a reasonable question, governor. What you're you noted in many interviews, I'm not gonna go through them ad nauseam. You were aware of this level of fraud and investigations, and yet it seems like nothing was done until the Trump administration, reestablished itself in a second term, and we began broad investigations into wage, fraud, abuse, and theft, and Minnesota popped.
So would you please, I'll just give you a minute to respond. Yeah. Why didn't you do something sooner? I know some people were put in jail. I know there were investigations, but there were billions of dollars being stolen from a pretty concentrated demographic in your community.
And this demographic is a significant political supporter for you and your party, good sir. So I just ask you, please explain.
Speaker 3
Well, thank you, mister Higgins, and I appreciate your question in good faith on this. First of all, the issue of billions, and I'll keep saying this, $1 is too many. That number got thrown around. There's nothing behind it, but I will acknowledge $1 is too much. I will also note the characterization.
Speaker 3
Well, there's nothing to support that. But, look, we will pursue it and assume that that's the case. We will still make the changes we need to make. The characterization that nothing happened till the Trump administration came in is simply not true. We worked with them in the first administration where USDA didn't take action, and I think that's documented.
The fact is, starting in 2019, I went to the legislature.
Speaker 12
And the criminal investigation, which I'm running out of time, I want to jump to. The way America sees this, governor Wallace, respectfully, sir, is that this money just continued to flow. There was a high awareness of this waste, fraud, abuse, and theft, like organized crime level theft. And it seemed to be slow rolled, and nobody stopped the money from rolling in. And money's gone.
Been remitted overseas. Attorney general Ellison, you stated in your opening statement that you sort of stated that your office only has direct jurisdiction over Medicaid fraud. Did you say that in your opening statement? Okay. Well, you seem to indicate that you don't have, like, criminal authority, but you do, don't you?
Under your own law, you have authority if the county district attorney asks you to get involved, or if the governor asks you to get involved, then your office can take the lead on any criminal investigation. Specifically, if you have particular staffing and capabilities within your office because it's statewide to look into organized crime. Is that not correct? Okay. So you have the authority to lead your state's effort to respond to this massive fraud at the state level from within the health care realm where government money has been stolen at very, very high levels, unprecedented levels in your state.
Are you leading that effort for the state of Minnesota?
Speaker 12
I'm not talking about Medicaid fraud. Don't hide behind that. You have the authority to prosecute anything critically that the governor asked you to, and this thing is big. I'm giving you an opportunity, sir. Are you leading the criminal investigative effort into this massive fraud across the board in the health care spectrum in the state of Minnesota or not?
Speaker 12
not leading. You're not leading. I'm a say, mister chairman, that the attorney general of the state of Minnesota should resign. I yield. Thank you.
Speaker 1
Gentlemen, yields back. Before I recognize Mister Frost, I wanna, Mister Waukechal, you were right. She's not testifying in Homeland Security. Christie Norm is testifying in the judiciary. I knew she was here somewhere today.
So that was you, you were right. I misstated the committee. Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost from Florida.
Speaker 23
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. And I have unanimous consent, called fraud focus. Why is Trump granting clemency to convicted fraudsters?
Speaker 23
Thank you all for being here. The whole world has witnessed unprecedented and extreme immigration enforcement tactics this year in Minnesota. After the murder of Renee Nicole Good and before the murder of Alex Pretty, President Donald Trump posted on Truth Social that, quote, the day of reckoning and retribution is coming. Governor Walls, the dictionary defines retribution as punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act. Based on what we've seen play out in Minneapolis, what is the problem with the president of the United States directing agents to carry out retribution?
Speaker 3
Well, yeah, thank you. And this is certainly troubling, because under the guise of fraud, which we all want to tackle, we were subject to, as you saw, the largest invasion of a state by the federal government, I don't know, in certainly any of our lifetimes. And that infliction, to me, we're trying to figure it out. Look. We'll acknowledge it, and we're fixing it in Minnesota.
But I'm telling you, each year you're gonna go back to your state. And if some of you think you want to be governor, you're gonna deal with this. And these folks keep moving. The problem is, congressman, this was about retribution. This was about singling out Minnesota.
And I think I'm gonna just name it. I think it's singling out because our state works, and it provides things for the people. And we care, and we mind our own business, and we respect our neighbors. And this retribution had nothing to do with getting the worst of the worst. We know that.
It had nothing to do with stopping fraud. And we were subject, we being Minnesotans, for over 10 weeks. And I wanna note just before I'll yield back on this congressman. I think this is important to note. The gentleman from Illinois noted that Midway Blitz, the damage it did to Chicago.
There were 500 agents on the ground in Chicago. Christie Nome testified yesterday there's still 650 in Minnesota. It is not over. This is not ancient news. This is not looking like everybody has moved on.
Minnesotans are still experiencing this.
Speaker 23
It's bad for our communities. It makes our people less safe. It's terrorizing our streets. Reverend, what has been happening in your community when individuals try to record federal agents?
Speaker 5
Thank you for your question. Individuals who have tried to record federal agents have been told they cannot. They have been asked for, taken pictures of their license plates. They have been followed. They have been subject to fear intimidation tactics by ICE agents.
Speaker 23
And one of the only reasons that, really, the world knows about what's going on in Minnesota is because of our constitution and the right to be able to record law enforcement and federal agents. Those videos and the videotapes have been in part the reason why we know what's going on. Trump administration officials have suggested that observing or identifying federal agents is, quote, doxing or, quote, assault. We know federal agents have followed observers to their homes. We know protesters have been pepper-sprayed.
We know people have been violently detained who were filming them, without bystanders having cameras who know how the murders of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Pretty by ICE agents would have been handled by this administration. They have already tried to lie about these murders, even with footage. After Alex Pretty was murdered, Steven Miller said he was, quote, a domestic terrorist who tried to, quote, assassinate federal law enforcement. Christie Nome said that he committed an act of domestic terrorism, and the president of the United States said that he was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist. Reverend, the last thing I wanna get to that I think is really important.
I grew up in the church, and I used to wear one of the what would Jesus do bracelets, mainly because I used to curse a little too much when I was little, and then I would, like, snap myself when I cursed. Either way, nowadays, I think less about what would Jesus do, and I think more about what would happen to Jesus in this country. And I just wanted to give you a moment to talk about what you think would happen to refugees Mary and Joseph as they come to our border. Would they be separated from their child? I mean, what does this look like?
Speaker 5
Such a good point, Congressman. And Jesus was himself a refugee, as for his parents. And, yes, I fear that they too would have experienced the harm and cruel treatment that Minnesotans have been experiencing at the hands of our government.
Speaker 23
What do you say to the people who hide behind the Bible and wrap themselves in the flag to say that what is going on in our country right now with ICE, terrorizing our communities, ripping our neighbors, ripping families apart? What would you say to people like that?
Speaker 5
I think, again, Matthew 25, where are we at this moment? It should be on the side of the least, the widow, the orphan, the hungry, the homeless, and that, as people of faith and moral conscience, history will tell what side we stood on, but our actions today will show true love of neighbor.
Speaker 1
Thank you. I yield back. I'm gonna yield back. Before I recognize Miss May, Mister Grofman, I believe, has a UC.
Speaker 24
I'd like to submit for the record something called Minnesota Financial and Compliance Report on federally assisted programs for the year ending 06/30/24.
Speaker 1
Without objection to the order. Chair now recognizes Miss Mace from South Carolina.
Speaker 25
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for being here today. Governor Walls and Attorney General Ellison, you have presided over one of the worst government fraud scandals in American history. This was money intended to feed hungry children, help kids with autism, provide food and shelter, and health care to the needy, and more. You both allowed billions of these American taxpayer dollars to be pillaged and plundered by Somali pirates.
You knew this was happening. You chose to do nothing about it, and in some cases, you even enabled it. Attorney general Ellison, you even profited from this fraud by taking campaign donations from these Somalians after pledging to help quash the investigation into them. I find your behavior despicable. My questions this morning, my first go to Governor Walls, and I hope you learned some lessons from your last hearing with me on the oversight committee.
Have you learned anything since?
Speaker 3
Did that if I didn't speak up, two of my people would be dead, Congresswoman. And I warned you.
Speaker 25
Okay. Miss Governor Walls, what is a woman? Have you learned that lesson? Do you know what a woman is?
Speaker 3
I'm the governor of Minnesota, Congresswoman. I'm not here to be your prop for your obsession.
Speaker 25
in a little of a woman is. You certainly can't define what fraud is. If you can't even define what a woman is, you can't define fraud. How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2017, Governor?
Speaker 25
And you've seen the numbers about autism fraud in Minnesota. So we're gonna do some Minnesota math with you today. Okay? Are you ready? How much money was spent in 2017 for autism in Minnesota?
How much?
Speaker 25
Okay. Did you not just say that you prepared for this hearing today? $1,000,000. Okay? A quick Google search or using your AI could tell you $1,000,000 was spent.
How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2024?
Speaker 25
head of the head. Excuse me, before that you didn't know what 2,017 autism numbers were because you were not governor. And today, you can't answer the numbers for 2024 as governor. And you still said you prepared for this hearing today. It's unbelievable.
$343000000 was spent in 2024. What percent increase is that from 1,000,000 to 343,000,000? What percentage increase is that?
Speaker 25
When I'm governor of South Carolina, you can sure as hell bet that I'm gonna know the math. The math is 34200% increase, an increase of 343 times what it was in this time period. Do you know the number of children in Minnesota?
Speaker 25
We have approximately 1,200,000 children in Minnesota. I'm not even the governor of South Carolina. Our population in South Carolina is 5,500,000. We have approximately 1,100,000 children 18 in my home state of South Carolina. Okay?
As governor, I expect you to know this information. Thank God you're not vice president of the United States. Do you know approximately how many children in Minnesota are autistic or on the spectrum?
Speaker 25
Okay. Well, if you take the CDC's roughly 1 in 36 kids are on the spectrum, we're talking about approximately 33,000 kids. In South Carolina, it's about 31 thousand or so. What is, do you know what this is per child spending-wise in the fraud for autistic kids in Minnesota?
Speaker 25
Is doing Minnesota math a prop? This is math. We're talking about fraud.
Speaker 25
These are my questions for you. It doesn't go the other way around unless we're on the debate stage. And we're not.
Speaker 25
Governor of Minnesota, which you can't answer. This is basic math. And you can't even answer. Can you even care about the kids in Minnesota?
Speaker 3
They rank near the top in every category. My children are fed. Children.
Speaker 25
Okay. Thank you. Mister chairman, I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the honorable Pamela Joe Bondi to appear before the committee for a deposition regarding the department's handling of the investigation to Jeffrey Epstein and his associates and compliance with the Epstein finals transparency act.
Speaker 1
A motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with today's hearing.
Speaker 25
Mister chairman, I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the office of congressional workplace rights for the awards and settlements paid pursuant to section 415 of the congressional accountability act prior to 12/12/2018, with only redactions allowable for the personally identifiable information of victims, alleged victims, and witnesses. Thank you, ma'am.
Speaker 1
A motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing.
Speaker 2
Thank you. No. We'd just like to see Missus Mace's motions in writing, would be great. Now.
Speaker 13
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record of 12/11/2025 an article from The Guardian titled, Somalis are the scapegoat. Fear rises as Trump targets Minneapolis community, which describes that objection. Xenophobic attacks.
Speaker 26
Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the past few months, Democrats on this committee and in the Senate have been holding hearings on the unconstitutional actions of the Trump administration. So we've heard, from, in that time, whistleblowers, industry experts, and survivors of abuses by federal agents. They spoke about warrantless searches that they have been subjected to, including federal agents bursting into their homes with guns. They spoke about being shot at and dragged out of their cars, and then, you know, being made to look like they were the perpetrators.
They spoke about federal agents' use of masks and unmarked vehicles, and the efforts of these agents to hide their identity to escape any sort of accountability. And we heard from the brother of Renee Good, who was murdered by ICE agents in Minneapolis. That is what oversight looks like. Not two hearings on fraud in one single state, which is not even the worst instance of fraud out there, though we all here agree that we should target fraud. Republicans have dragged governor Walson again to demonize and target his state because he is a Democratic governor, he is implementing Democratic policies.
Republicans took a legitimate investigation and, as per usual, have made it a circus. Now we have just a random guy lurking around childcare centers, trying to get into buildings with children as the fraud vigilante. The Somali community has been vilified and made to feel unsafe, and federal benefits are being cut to Minnesota and other Democrat-led states. Trump and his administration also used this investigation as a justification for an immigration enforcement push that has created chaos, fueled violence, and resulted in the death of American citizens. Reverend Tolgaard, as a Minnesotan, do you feel that these oversight hearings and the Trump administration's fixation on fraud in Minnesota have made anyone safer in your state?
Speaker 26
Republicans have been touting alleged fraud in child care centers and a need to protect children. But since the immigration enforcement push, have kids been able to be kids? Have they felt comfortable going to school or playing out in public with each other or with their friends?
Speaker 5
They have not been safe. They've not been able to go to school, to be in playgrounds, to be in libraries, and places you would normally expect to find them.
Speaker 26
Are you worried about the long-term impact of being surrounded by violence and uncertainty, what it could have on these children?
Speaker 5
I'm deeply concerned about that, and I know that their teachers and parents are as well.
Speaker 26
You were arrested earlier this year while protesting ICE agents and deportations. Why was it important for you and other clergy members to speak out against Trump's administration's actions in Minnesota and elsewhere?
Speaker 5
Thank you for your question. I was arrested along with 99 other faith leaders in Minnesota, many of whom could be here today. And we were compelled to action to stand on the side of the most vulnerable in our communities and those who have been facing enormous cruelty and unfair actions on the hands of ice. And we needed to stand alongside them as have many others, in our faith traditions and in history. We stand along with that great cloud of witnesses.
Speaker 26
I wanna thank you for coming in today and for, of course, having the courage to stand up to the attacks against your community. This, as we can all see, was never truly about fraud. It is a part of a greater effort by Trump and Republicans to gut social services, roll back civil rights, to villainize and make others out of people who they don't want to have and enjoy the same civil liberties and rights as others in this nation. They wanna strip away and have been stripping away health care and education, child care funding that millions of people rely on. This investigation and these actions have only been used to harm, not to help people.
And rest assured, this will not stop in Minnesota, just as it didn't stop in Chicago before that or LA before that. This is a blatant attempt, blatant authoritarian grab that the Trump administration has been persistent in. It will come to all shores if we do not all take a collective stance. But more than that, urging my colleagues in the Republican Caucus or Conference to take up their job and their task as a coequal branch of government. We do not serve as the lap dogs, as the cold followers of Donald Trump, of a president.
When there are abuses or overreach, it is supposed to be us that take a stand. And I would hope that at some point in the 119th Congress, some Republican with the gavel will do so. I thank you all for your time. I yield back.
Speaker 27
Thank you, chairman. Governor Walls, when did you first receive notice of potential fraud in Minnesota's social services programs?
Speaker 3
Social service programs in general. We knew that there were issues with the CCAP program as early as 2012. And my first days in office, we started taking action.
Speaker 27
office. Alright. Governor Wallace, former department of human services commissioner Tony Lori testified that you were aware in early 2019 of fraud in two department of human services administratively administered programs. Is this statement accurate?
Speaker 27
You don't remember this meeting or this notification? No. Not specifically. I don't. In March 2019, your office of legal affairs reported 5 to 6 million in alleged child care assistance program fraud.
In April 2019, it was also reported that the Department of Human Services lacked proper integrity controls to control fraud. Were you aware of these reports?
Speaker 3
Not specific reports, but because of that, my office, we put forward actions to address them starting in 2019.
Speaker 27
Is it correct that your administration was aware of the Feeding Our Future fraud as early as May 2020 based upon regular discussions about program irregularities?
Speaker 3
I believe that's correct with the agency, the Department of Education, and then going back to USDA.
Speaker 3
Not me specifically, that they're handled internally in the machine. Happens every day? Who was notified, Governor Wallace? The agencies do their work, the commissioners. And then if someone in my office was notified, they let me know.
As governor, I make, you know, 50 decisions a day. I said I did this job for 12 years. I make more decisions than it does in a day. Governor Walls. So someone was maybe notified, but the agency's the ones who take the action.
Speaker 27
The next question. We have it under sworn testimony in the oversight committee that your former chief of staff was notified directly by these various commissioners about the fraud in Minnesota.
Speaker 3
I'm saying I don't recall whether he did it at that time or not, but we took action. So I'm assuming when we put our budgets together based on that, we put a package together for that legislative session.
Speaker 27
Let's talk about budgets, Governor Walls. Feeding our future went from $307,000 in 2018 to $199,000,000 in 2021. Are you aware of this increase in budgetary costs from Feeding Our Future?
Speaker 27
The housing stabilization services went from $27,000,000 in 2021 to $105,000,000 in 2024. Are you aware of.
Speaker 3
This increase, Governor Walls? Not specifically, but I know it increased.
Speaker 27
Autism centers went from 24 million in 2019 to 342,000,000 in 2024. Are you aware of that? Not specifically again, but we know the budget's increased. Community supports went from 4,600,000 in 2021 to 170,000,000 in 2024. Are you aware of that?
Again, not specifically on the numbers, but it's the budget. Governor Walls, you have to submit a budget to your legislature every single year like every governor has to do. If you're not aware of these increases, what was your office?
Speaker 27
Florida's budget is 115,000,000,000, sir. But what were you doing if you're seeing program increases like this, amid allegations of fraud in your state?
Speaker 3
Sure. And in 2019, I'll go to the first things that we did on child care assistance. We lowered the standards on proof of administrative fraud disqualification.
Speaker 3
We lowered the standards for proof of administrative fraud. The standards where we had to prove it were so high, it was impossible to try and do it. So we lowered what it took to show that fraud was happening.
Speaker 27
And what did you do with the results of lowering the standards to prove fraud? What did you do?
Speaker 27
The fraud continued to increase. It increased under your tenure. Do you acknowledge that?
Speaker 3
Did the numbers increase? Yes. And I tell you when you catch people and prosecute them, it shows up as the fraud increase. I would tell you, Congressman. But if your income increases.
Speaker 27
Don't I got fifty seconds, governor, and I don't wanna get into a fight with you. But let me move quickly to the lieutenant governor. Peggy Flanagan is the lieutenant governor. Is that correct? That is correct.
Does the lieutenant governor go on the ticket with you, or are they elected by themselves on a ballot in the state of Minnesota?
Speaker 3
She has an independent office, she's a constitutional officer. She's on the ticket, but she is independent as a constitutional officer.
Speaker 27
For her resignation at any time. Is that correct? That's typically how it works with lieutenant governors.
Speaker 3
Yeah. But she's a constitutional officer. I don't believe that has happened in Minnesota.
Speaker 27
Peggy Flanagan is, there are accusations that she was intimidating whistleblowers. There was a meeting on April 12, 2024, where she went on stage and publicly denounced whistleblowers in the state of Minnesota, calling them losers in their mother's basement. Is this the type of treatment that your administration allows for whistleblowers in Minnesota?
Speaker 27
Aware of any intimidation of whistleblowers in the state of Minnesota? There are 30 whistleblowers who have given letters to this committee on the record, saying that they have witnessed. They have been subject to intimidation by your administration because they were trying to stop the fraud in Minnesota.
Speaker 3
I encourage them to go to the OLA and the independent sources in Minnesota that are the OLA? You're the governor. No. The OLA is the independent source.
Speaker 27
You're the governor. Why don't you take responsibility for what's going on in your state?
Speaker 3
We do take responsibility. None of those people, I’m telling you. I have no knowledge.
Speaker 27
Billions of dollars of American taxpayer money in the process, governor Walls.
Speaker 27
I would argue that the prosecutions have largely come from the federal offices. That's not how it states offices.
Speaker 27
Is the attorney general allowed to investigate fraud and prosecute fraud in the state of Minnesota without the Department of Justice federally? Are you allowed to do that, Attorney General Ellison?
Speaker 4
Yes. So we do prosecute Medicaid. Yes. So we do prosecute Medicaid fraud all the time. We've prosecuted over 300 people.
Speaker 1
Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Ms. Randall from Washington state.
Speaker 13
Thank you, mister chair, and thank you, governor Wallace, attorney general Allison, and reverend Tolgaard for being here to shed light on the impacts of the Trump administration's harmful actions in Minnesota and, frankly, to be pulled into some really ridiculous question lines. The escalation in attacks from this administration on social services programs in democratically led states like Minnesota on the heels of the big ugly laws, billions of dollars of Medicaid cuts last summer, is clearly devastating our communities. Do I believe congress has a responsibility to reduce opportunities for misuse and fraud where we have seen evidence that it exists? Sure. That's why I introduced the Federal Program Integrity and Fraud Prevention Act, a bipartisan bill that would prevent individuals who have been convicted of fraud from applying for federal contracts.
Mister chairman, right. If you are serious about addressing fraud, I'd love to see this committee hold a hearing on my bill, which was developed based on feedback from nonpartisan inspectors general whose entire job is overseeing the appropriate administration of government programs. And let me remind my friends on the other side about Mississippi, a state with Republican leadership where over $77,000,000 in temporary assistance for needy families. Funds were misused. One of the perpetrators of that fraud, former NFL quarterback Brett Farr, who received $1,100,000 from the government for speeches he never made.
Congressional Republicans' response was to invite Farr to come testify before the Ways and Means Committee about how we should strengthen oversight of federal welfare programs. Because I'm sure he had some good advice about that. Meanwhile, my Republican colleagues are villainizing entire minority populations because of the actions of a few. We have a word for that. I also have a lot of Republican colleagues here who talk about being fiscally responsible and reining in the federal spending.
Again, I also believe we should be fiscally responsible. But to me, fiscal responsible governing means that we invest in transformative universal health care that saves us money in the long term. Child care policies that give the budget back $7 on the dollar spent in long-term costs for the children who benefit. Policies that will actually save our country money in the long run and contribute to a strong society and strong economy, not slashing social services, not defunding hospitals, not eliminating childcare programs. Governor Walls, why do you think the Trump administration is so obsessed with fraud in Minnesota when its own agencies have found other states with even worse problems?
Speaker 3
Well, it's a question we're all asking, Congresswoman. And I'd like to say, and thank you for this, I just wanna make sure I go on record, Chairman Comer, and condemning the slurs towards my Somali community that the general woman from South Carolina made. Thank you. Look, congresswoman, I don't know. I think it's been pretty clear the president does not like me personally.
I think he continues to tell lies about our electoral system, claiming that he's won all three times, when he lost all three times. I think he has people around him who were trying to find quotas around immigration, and they saw a perfect storm, if you will, that included some Somali folks and a whole lot. You know, if we're gonna condemn folks, there's no Somali folks in the Epstein files, things like that. We know. But I don't know.
It's an obsession, and I come back to it again. I think it's because we are so ideologically opposed to making children go hungry, and people go unhoused. We invest in education. We invest in research, and we believe everybody has a place. And so I think it's just personal about how we do business.
Speaker 13
Thank you so much. I could not agree more. There are also reports that as many as 50 prosecutors in the US attorney's office for Minnesota have quit in the last 12 months. They used to have 70 prosecutors. Now some reports say they have as few as 17.
Many of those who left include the very same prosecutors who were prosecuting the Feeding Our Futures fraudsters. How has this flight impacted your efforts to fight fraud in Minnesota?
Speaker 3
Well, it has made it very difficult. And I think for all of my friends on the Republican side, we welcomed the Republican folks, the attorneys over at the US Attorney's office who were good at helping us as partners. We turned this over to them. They prosecute. They put people in jail.
They're not there now. There's nobody doing this. And I will remind the committee. The US attorney was in front of a federal judge yesterday, being threatened with jail because of what's going on in that office. And from my perspective, who's prosecuting trafficking, drugs, murder, and fraud?
And so we want them. If you could do anything, chairman, call the president in time to put some US attorneys over there to prosecute fraud. I'll sign on with you.
Speaker 1
Two ladies on the back. Here, I recognize this chairman Burchett from Tennessee.
Speaker 22
Say that with disrespect in your voice, mister chairman. Governor, you mentioned that President Trump lost all three times. I believe that was an error, and that's a conspiracy theorist. I believe you've spoken error there.
Speaker 22
We're good. We're good. Have you ever used taxpayer funds directly or indirectly to take action against individuals suspected of disclosing potential wrongdoing within a government entity?
Speaker 22
Well, almost 30 whistleblowers accused you and your administration of retaliation. Would you say that's a conspiracy, then?
Speaker 3
I can't speak to what they said. I can tell you it didn't happen. Okay. Are you?
Speaker 22
Aware of reports alleging state officials have engaged in retaliation against whistleblowers?
Speaker 3
I am not. I believe these are Internet. We have options. The OLA, we have independent folks that they can come to, and I encourage them. It's against the law in Minnesota.
I have executive orders.
Speaker 22
That want the law here, but it doesn't stop it. What actions have you taken to protect whistleblowers in your state, sir? And does anyone face consequences for retaliation? If so, who?
Speaker 3
Well, in Minnesota, we have a nonpartisan legislative auditor. We have zero tolerance. The Minnesota Whistleblower Protection Act prohibits retaliation. I signed an executive order in 2025, added protections. The law explains and clarifies protections around what reports are protected and who can report issues.
They're strong. When I was here, I was an advocate for the IGs, and I think that's well known in my twelve years here that we need them.
Speaker 22
Okay. Well, a whistleblower told our office that our supervisor at the Minnesota Department of Health and Human Services threatened to make her job difficult, and the supervisor that did that later received a promotion. Would that surprise you? And can you confirm if this account is accurate? No.
Speaker 3
I can't confirm it, and I don't make HR decisions. But what I'm being very clear about this. There's a zero tolerance for Louisville Borough retaliation in Minnesota.
Speaker 22
Can you, how can any agency combat fraud when retaliation goes unchecked?
Speaker 22
Do you think that any of the fraudsters sent stolen funds to Somali terrorist groups?
Speaker 22
Think that any of the Somali folks that received funds sent any of that money to any of the stolen funds to Somali terrorist groups?
Speaker 3
There have been reports done and investigations done on this, and I don't believe there's any proof to support that. Okay.
Speaker 22
Mister attorney general, do you recall a 12/21/2021 meeting with individuals connected to Feeding Our Future during which you stated there will be cases that you know I want you to feel free to call me directly, and then I call up and, what's the problem? And let me tell you, just letting the inquiry from AG is sometimes enough to make people knock it off.
Speaker 4
Congressman, yeah, I was at a meeting like that. Let me just say that I've reported on this numerous times. I've been in front of a committee in the Senate. I've been here today. I was in front of a state house committee.
I was, this is a widely discussed matter, and I've been fully transparent. But let me just be clear. These people were fraudsters, as everyone here agrees. They were liars. They lied to me.
They lied to the courts. They lied to everyone. And I would like you to know that I do meet community meetings all the time. I mean, it's a regular part of my job. Nothing unusual about me meeting with people.
Nothing unusual about me telling people if you got a problem, you know, my office will try to help you. But these people were liars and fraudsters. Okay. The main thing is I'd like you to know is that we're down so many federal prosecutors that it has put our ability to hold these people accountable definitely at a loss.
Speaker 22
Yes, sir. Eight-hour days do get long. In September 2022, you issued a press release titled for two years. Attorney General Ellison's office has held Feeding Our Future accountable. Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 4
Thank you for the question, Congressman. Let me tell you, the Department of Education sounds familiar or not, sir? It certainly does. And the Department of Education.
Speaker 22
How much did you receive in campaign contributions from individuals charged in the Feeding Our Future case?
Speaker 22
Everybody knows about the 250,000,000 in fraud in the Feeding Our Future case, which was prosecuted by the US attorney's office in Minnesota. But there were just two other large site sponsors that you settled with instead of prosecuting. Why did you not prosecute partners in quality care or the Gar Gar Family Services?
Speaker 4
Because my office doesn't have jurisdiction to prosecute in those cases.
Speaker 22
Well, you allowed them to dissolve, but no one was prosecuted. And, PIQC.
Speaker 22
Connor. PIQC is accused of 300,000,000 in fraud as significant assets, yet no charges, and no attempts to recover taxpayer money. I'll remind y'all, $19,000,000,000. I was a state legislator, and I can remember when our state budget was 19,000,000,000. This is money that's been stolen, and it will not be recovered.
And you all are to blame, and every dadgum one of you all ought to step down. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Speaker 1
Gentleman yields back. Before I recognize Mister Bell, Mister Donald, do you have a UC?
Speaker 27
Yeah. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record and not be from the Minnesota Star Tribune authored by Jim Nobles, the former Minnesota legislative auditor, dated 12/29/2025. Without objections, you're ordered.
Speaker 28
Thank you, Chair, Ranking Member, and our witnesses for being here today. My Republican colleagues have caught this hearing today once again to divert the public's attention from the dangerous threats that they themselves have created for the American people. They have chosen to turn a blind eye to the escalating public safety crisis in Minneapolis, Minnesota, fueled by the deployment of ICE agents under the direction of President Trump. On 12/01/2025, this administration launched operation Metro Serve Surge under the false pretense of promoting public safety in Minneapolis. Since then, we have witnessed several deaths, including the brutal killings of Renee Good on 01/07/2026 and Alex Pretty only a few short weeks later on January 24.
News reports state that in 2026 alone, there have already been 8 additional deaths at the hands of federal agents. We are now living in one of the deadliest periods on record, with more deaths carried out by ICE agents in recent years than at any time since 2004. Under this administration's direction, masked agents have inflicted trauma that will remain in these communities and neighborhoods. There's a lack of accountability and justice. Survivor stories have been suppressed.
False narratives have been told, and federal officials have refused to cooperate, even going so far as to block state investigators from accessing evidence. A. G. Ellison, as the chief legal officer for the state of Minnesota, what level of cooperation would you expect from the federal government during an investigation of this magnitude?
Speaker 4
Congressman, I would expect the kind of cooperation that we're used to experiencing. I mean, in all of the time that I've even been a lawyer, which is now 36 years, state federal cooperation was exactly how we did business all the time. We are very proud and love working with our FBI agents, DEA agents, and ATF agents. It's a regular thing. This is what's strange and unusual.
Speaker 28
And has the lack of and unclear communication from the federal agencies undermined the investigations into the death of Renee Good and Alex Pretty?
Speaker 4
It certainly has. We have been denied access to critical evidence in this case that we would need to evaluate this matter, based on use of force analysis.
Speaker 28
Which is befuddling to me because as a former prosecutor, I've led serious and thorough investigations in pursuit of justice. I can say that what we have seen by DHS, DOJ, and the FBI is the complete opposite of a detailed and thorough investigation into the wrongdoing of ICE officials. And let us be clear, despite what President Trump would have the public believe, those agents remain on the streets of Minnesota. These actions are not isolated incidents. We've seen similar events taking place across the nation in Illinois, North Carolina, and California, to name a few.
We have heard directly from survivors about the cruelty and mistreatment they endured by ICE agents, and we have seen the individuals appointed under President Trump to head these operations evade justice and not be held accountable for their actions. We can't stand by and allow this to continue. Those responsible for these actions must be held accountable, and survivors and their families deserve answers and justice. Which is why, mister chair, I move that pursuant to clause two, subsection k6 of house rule 11, the committee shall subpoena Greg Bovino to testify before the house committee on oversight and government reform.
Speaker 1
A motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with today's hearing.
Speaker 2
I'd like to just provide a few of that time to the reverend. I know I wanted to make some additional comments about something that was said earlier in the hearing. You have thirty seconds.
Speaker 5
Thank you. Just following up on Matthew 25. I am so proud of the countless ways that Minnesotans, Christians, and people of other faiths and moral conscience have stepped forward to show love of neighbor and to come alongside those who are suffering most in this time. There is no greater example of living out the teachings of Christ and caring for the least among us than what we've seen in Minnesota these past few.
Speaker 1
Gentlemen, back. Before I recognize Mister Perry, I have unanimous consent to enter into the record an article from Alpha News where US Attorney Rosen stated, and I quote, we have more than adequate staffing to carry out the fraud. We have been reinforced in dramatic numbers by the Department of Justice and by other departments of the federal government. He also said fraud investigations are increasing in pace. Fraud prosecutions, you will see, are going to be dramatically increasing in pace.
According to Rosen, if you're committing fraud in the state of Minnesota, it's really not a good time to be doing so. Just wanted to enter that article in the record without objections, ordered. Chair now recognizes Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania.
Speaker 29
Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you again. You're an army guy. I'm an army guy. What's, as governor, one of your primary responsibilities to keep your citizens safe?
Right? I think we could probably agree on that. We might not agree on much, but we could probably agree on that. And I heard you talk earlier about working with the federal partners. There's a lot been discussed here about fraud of various kinds, but I wanna talk about something that seems to me, quite honestly, a dereliction of duty or certainly a huge lapse in judgment.
And you were governor in October, 2023. Right?
Speaker 29
On the same page here. And you signed the Minnesota driver's licenses for all act. Is that correct? That's correct. That's correct.
Right? So now, look, I'm not gonna hold you to knowing every single thing in these laws. There's a lot of paragraphs, wording, and so on and so forth. But under your law that you signed, it prohibits the disclosure of information contained in the license or identification card applications for enforcing title 8 of The United States code. Just to make sure, are you familiar with what Title Eight deals with?
Speaker 29
Okay. So it deals with immigration, nationality, and aliens. Particularly, the law that you signed eliminates the requirement for Social Security numbers or proof of lawful presence. And, furthermore, it's a violation under section 14-4 of your code for anybody to research that. As a matter of fact, immigration status is classified as private under section 13.18.
So, literally, the federal government, your partner, as you said, we work with our federal partners, can't use that driver's license information regarding people who are here illegally.
Speaker 3
I don't understand the connection to the driver's license and the immigration piece, I guess.
Speaker 29
Well, they can't because, well, let me just make the connection for you. According to the secretary of transportation, one third of Minnesota's nondomiciled commercial driver's licenses were issued illegally. Do you have a video ready to play for me? Can you play it now? This is what happens, mister governor.
This is what happens when you issue driver's licenses to people illegally.
Speaker 21
He is on the northbound lanes of 61 going the wrong way. You can see I'm going southbound on 61. He's in the northbound lanes on Highway 61.
Speaker 29
How much does that thing weigh? Sixty, eighty thousand pounds, 60 miles an hour.
Speaker 29
Can cut the video. He was licensed in your state under a law that you signed that precludes federal officials, your federal partners, as you call them, from determining whether they're here illegally. That guy who was driving that truck couldn't pass the test. He didn't pass the test on the road. There's another video.
I'm not gonna play it, but there's another video of a guy here illegally turning a truck like that around in the middle of a highway, where people lost their lives because they were decapitated when they went underneath it. That's what happened. So my question for you is, this should be easy. Yep. What are you gonna do to rectify the law that you signed that allows people here illegally to get a CDL?
That tape was in Missouri, not in your state. Look. If you don't wanna protect the people in your state, I guess that's your business and the business of your voters. But that driver was driving in Missouri. And if he'd hit a bunch of people, quite honestly, to me, you could have been held liable.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, congressman, first of all, Minnesota ranks in the top three safest states by highway data from your own department. Highway data. The data from the Department of Transportation for highway safety. We have the third.
We want everybody on our roads to be licensed.
Speaker 3
The okay with that. I'm not okay with you speeding. I'm not okay with DUIs.
Speaker 29
But you signed this law that allows for that. You signed it, and you're gonna do nothing about it?
Speaker 29
I can. I just referenced your law. It says House of Representatives, State of Minnesota. And I know there's a lot of words here. I just wrote our.
Speaker 29
Exactly. The sections that allow for this to happen and preclude federal enforcement regarding immigration and the illegality of people receiving CDLs under your state's Drivers.
Speaker 3
Safety and immigration are two separate things. Anybody, had that been a citizen or not, it's still tragic. It's wrong. We shouldn't do it. What I'm telling you is, in Minnesota, we have the third safest roads in the country.
Speaker 3
Well, I can't speak to the specific on if it's an outlier. We give license to people who then go on. Eventually, after we issue a license.
Speaker 29
Last month. Let this be March. That happened a week and a half ago. Yeah. Don't know.
Familiar.
Speaker 29
But you're not gonna do anything. Sure. We're gonna do this. What are you gonna do?
Speaker 29
He was licensed in your state under your law that you signed about a year and a half ago.
Speaker 3
Every day, we give licenses and people speed. So we ticket them and try to stop that. What I'm telling you is I don't understand the connection between.
Speaker 29
He's here illegally. He can't read, and he got a license under the provisions, and he's driving all across the country and imperiling everybody else. That's the connection.
Speaker 3
I can't speak. Thank you. The data shows Minnesota's one of the safest driving states in the country. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know, mister.
Thank.
Speaker 1
I didn't have it on the list, but oh, I should, I will yield to the ranking member.
Speaker 31
was tardy. I thank you, Mr. Minn. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, and thank you, witnesses, for coming today. So what I've heard so far is Feeding Our Future, $250,000,000 stolen.
50 convictions secured. The prosecution was working. Then the administration froze 10,000,000,000 in childcare across five states. No evidence. No legal authority.
No statutory process. A federal court ruled it unlawful and unconstitutional within 48 hours. Thank you, Attorney General Allison and Attorney General Bonta for that work. Then the.
Speaker 31
The prosecutor resigned. His team followed. Those prosecutions are now at risk. So the record shows they froze 10,000,000,000 illegally, lost in court immediately, and dismantled the prosecution, actually putting fraudsters in prison. Every single action made the fraud worse.
This isn't incompetence, because incompetence is random. This was targeted, legally defective, and prosecutorially catastrophic. If this committee was serious about fraud, the first witness should have been the HHS official who sent the letter, not the attorney general who beat them in court. Attorney General Ellison, what are we doing here? And I want actually to ask you, what is your office doing systematically to prosecute fraud in the state?
Speaker 4
Well, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. We, as I said, prosecuting Medicaid fraud is a very important work that we do. We do it every day. We've secured millions of dollars for the people. We've gotten millions in restitution.
We've convicted people and held them accountable. We also represent state agencies and help those agencies support the work that they do. The fact of the matter is that, you know, we the this work we do to stop fraud, is helping to protect public money. We're proud of it. And, we also support federal prosecutions by providing them with information that they need to prosecute fraud, which we have done, and we'll, of course, continue.
Speaker 31
to do. So, sir, tell me this. How has the ability to prosecute fraud and social services programs been affected by this administration?
Speaker 4
Well, it has been devastated by the actions of this administration. This administration has cut the number of prosecutors, also has redirected FBI agents to do immigration, as opposed to.
Speaker 4
Those prosecutors, actually, I said cut, but they actually resigned as a matter of conscience because the administration was trying to force them to investigate the widow of René Good.
Speaker 4
So many of them said that they couldn't work under those circumstances because it violated their ethical, their personal ethical requirements, so they quit.
Speaker 31
So they left their jobs that they had sworn to do en masse because they were conflicted in conscience.
Speaker 4
That's right. And may I add, congresswoman, that we have had motions to dismiss for the violation of a defendant's right to a speedy trial granted by judges in Minnesota because there's not enough federal prosecutors. And, you know, one of those was a person who was a violent offender, who was being prosecuted for a felony in possession of a firearm. Case was dismissed because there are not enough people to perform the functions of prosecuting people who commit crimes. So this is having a devastating effect on our state.
And in addition to all that, congresswoman.
Speaker 31
this straight. Help me understand. 50 convictions secured, additional prosecutions in limbo. The administration's prosecutors have quit because of the staging of how this all works. They believe, and they have said on record, it is immoral.
Why are we here?
Speaker 31
Because aren't you saying that you would love for the prosecutions that are dangling in the wind, you would love for those folks to face justice?
Speaker 31
Be then to the administration for what? With this committee here, I think your colleague, the governor of your great state said you want more federal prosecutors on this case.
Speaker 4
Yes. But it also, we should go back to the Hippocratic oath of do no harm. I mean, it would be good to just stop doing things that shouldn't be done, such as demanding that prosecutors investigate Renee Goods' widow.
Speaker 31
Right. That's right. Well, I want to thank you all so much for coming today. And, to the reverend, I was able to come to your state briefly. And like one of my colleagues said, I did go by the site of Miss Goods' death, and it was heartening to see the solidarity in your community.
There are about 150 Christians reciting the Lord's prayer over and over. You all are showing us what good really means. Thank you so much for being here today. And I'll yield back.
Speaker 19
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our guests for coming today. I wanna start with you, Attorney General Ellison. In an interview with CNN host Laura Coates, she asked you about whether you did enough to stop the fraud. Do you remember that interview, Attorney General?
Speaker 19
Okay. I'll just tell you what you said when she asked you if you'd done enough to stop the fraud, and she mentioned the $9,000,000,000. You said, of course, we have done enough. We're doing more every day. This is a political matter.
This is not a serious thing. Do you remember saying that, Attorney General Ellison?
Speaker 4
I remember the conversation. What I remember was that I was lamenting the politicized nature of this very serious problem.
Speaker 19
In the CNN, Mister Ellison. You said, this is a political matter, and this is a quote. This is not a serious thing. So I noticed you're changing your tune now that you're before the House Oversight Committee.
Speaker 19
You understand, Mister Attorney General, why this adds gasoline to the fire when Americans are so frustrated with this government for their out-of-control spending and the amount of money they pay in taxes? And then to see $9,000,000,000 of it, an estimate of $9,000,000,000 getting stolen of their taxpayer dollars and being used to fund cars, vacations, homes, and even fund terrorism. Do you understand how statements like that throw gasoline on the fire, sir?
Speaker 31
Is that there have been hundreds of millions of dollars, but now there are some estimates that there could be $9,000,000,000 or more. And no one was just suggesting they took hundreds of people off the street who were involved in fraud. Are you confident your office has done enough?
Speaker 4
Of course. We've done enough. We are doing more every single day. This is a political matter. This is not a serious state.
Speaker 19
So how are you gonna sit here, attorney general, saying I'm mischaracterizing? I read word for word your quote. I then showed it to the entire dais, the entire audience here today. How are you gonna sit here and say that I mischaracterized you?
Speaker 4
Congressman, I believe you mischaracterized me because, clearly, what I was referring to by not serious is that the serious issue of fraud is being politicized and converted into a political weapon. That is not a serious matter in my view. That is something that I believe all of us should take seriously, but we're not taking it seriously enough. So, sir, I would say very clearly fraud is an odious, horrible, malignant thing, and that's why it should not be turned into a political weapon, but we should come together on a it's
Speaker 19
Becoming political, sir, is because of statements like that, when confronted with the $9,000,000,000 of fraud in your state as the top cop in your state that you're clearly not doing enough to address. I wanna move on. Reverend Tollegard, you said in your opening statement that today's hearing is about fraud in Minnesota, quote, unquote, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has brought to the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rational for deploying 3,000 federal immigrant enforcement agents into our state. Did you say that, Reverend?
Speaker 19
This is absolutely false. These federal agents were actually brought in to the state of Minnesota for a very specific operation to remove illegal alien criminals. It wasn't because of the fraud. That's being handled under a completely different agency, ICE, and everything else. That's the US district attorney.
Okay? Did you know that?
Speaker 19
Well, they've linked the fact that you guys supported an open border that led in 15 to $20,000,000, some of the fallout from that is fraud, like the 9,000,000,000 we're talking about today. Some of it are the rapists, the gangsters, the, you know, the people that are committing fraud. They're burglarizing people. They're carjacking people. It's all kind of linked together.
It's also linked to the SAVE Act, which many of you guys and my Democrat colleagues don't wanna vote for even though 83% of Americans support it. It's all linked together, but that's not what this operation was about. So you're bearing false witness in this hearing today because that's not what that operation was about at all.
Speaker 5
What I'm here to talk about is the suffering of Minnesotans at the hands of federal agents, including children and their parents, and the great devastation and harm that it has caused across our state and across our wonderful communities.
Speaker 19
Have you spoken about Lake and Riley or any of the American victims that have been raped, murdered, or killed by these illegal aliens, reverend? I didn't think so. I yield back.
Speaker 32
Thank you, mister chair, for convening this hearing. Let's start at the outset by just stating the obvious: waste, fraud, and abuse are horrible. They're stealing from the taxpayers. They're taking money and food out of the mouths of hungry kids. I have spent my career fighting against fraud.
I started my career at the SEC prosecuting corporate fraud, continued on as a law professor, teaching the next generation. And as someone on the oversight committee, this is a very important issue to me. Again, every dollar that is stolen from these programs is a dollar that's not just taken from us, hard-working taxpayers. It is something that is meant for better use. And so I appreciate the gist of this hearing.
But as I pointed out in prior hearings on allegations of fraud in Minnesota, the singular and exclusive focus on the Somali community in Minnesota seems very partisan and wrong. Because we know there's massive fraud across this country, particularly in Southern states, including states like Florida and Mississippi. Mississippi is still on trial right now. We're $77,000,000 in welfare fraud. Federal prosecutors have recently arrested a Russian national accused of submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent schemes in Texas and Florida.
And, of course, Oklahoma and Alabama consistently rank as the highest states when it comes to SNAP fraud, and yet we've only focused on Minnesota. Why? As a freshman member, I've been here 14 months, but I've learned that their House Republicans are all single-issue voters with just a handful of exceptions. And that single issue, the only thing that you all care about is whether you're on team Trump or not. And so when Donald Trump goes after Minnesota and falsely claims that he won the election there three times, and that it was rigged against him, I pay close attention.
When he says that he would no longer admit Somalians to this country because they contribute, quote, nothing to this country, I listen. That's a wildly racist statement, but it's gonna reflect what Republicans are gonna do, and that is why we're holding this hearing. I care about welfare fraud, and I care about the scumbags who rip off taxpayer money. But if this was about welfare fraud, we'd be also hauling in people like Mississippi governor Tate Reeves and former NFL quarterback Brett Favre, who clearly knew about a scheme to send money to build a volleyball facility at the college his daughter was playing at, receive funds for 600,000 or more, for work that he never did from the government, again, taking money from the mouths of children that are hungry. Now, this hearing is not about welfare fraud.
It's about placating Donald Trump. This committee is holding this hearing for the same reasons that it's ignoring the massive corruption we know that Donald Trump is engaged in and his family, soliciting bribes from foreign governments and private companies in exchange for regulatory favor, for the same reason that Republicans are protecting pedophiles right now, and that the DOJ is right now actively deleting Epstein files while we're at war with Iran. It's why they ignore their oath to support and defend the Constitution in the United States. It's why we're holding hearings on this rather than on ICE abuses or the fact that Donald Trump just took us into war without even consulting with Congress, let alone getting our authorization for military use or force, or actual declaration of war in direct contravention of the Constitution in the United States. But for those of us who care about taxpayer dollars, let's focus on that.
This is horrible. But, of course, we have seen instead a different type of abuse of our taxpayer dollars. They've taken our taxpayer dollars and used them to fund abuses against our American people, as a number of our witnesses aptly described. And I wanna just point out that until the murder of Alex Pretty, not a single DHS or ICE agent accused of wrongdoing, witnessed or videotaped assaulting Americans, was suspended or faced any disciplinary action. That doesn't happen with the police.
When my local law enforcement are accused of misconduct, certainly if they're videotaping shooting someone, they are subject to investigation. Maybe they're justified or not, but they're suspended, removed from duty, and investigated. None of that has happened until the murder of Alex Petty and the outrage around that. Now, Governor Wallace, I wanna just briefly ask you, what's the economic impact that the deployment of ICE in Minnesota has had over the past few months?
Speaker 3
Well, thank you, Congressman. I thank you for your characterization. I associate myself with you on fraud is horrific. It is corrosive. It hurts those people that are there, and taxpayers should demand accountability.
And I think that's what we're trying to take. The issue can again.
Speaker 3
For us, we just had our economic numbers, and I would tell people that we have to balance the budget every year. Minnesota is strong. We're triple-A bond rated. That shows up good. It doesn't account for what happened over the last 3 months.
And by estimates, the city of Minneapolis estimates they lost $200,000,000 alone. And I remind people, you saw pictures of Minneapolis. This happened across the state. Near my hometown of Mankato, Minnesota, in Saint Peter, we saw a woman that was pulled over at gunpoint, a citizen. The chilling effect it had, businesses going under, especially immigrant-owned businesses, people who are here legally, citizens starting businesses.
Speaker 32
I'm just gonna reclaim my time to make one final point here. I was at Minneapolis, had the chance to meet with you and others. I also met with a number of local police chiefs, and one of the things they told me, first, is this is not the first time ISIS operated in Minnesota. But in the past, what is different about this time is that they did not coordinate. They did not tell, and that resulted in a lot of 911 calls because when you see masked men jumping out of vans, pulling people out, assaulting them, punching them in the head, as happens all the time with ICE agents.
And by the way, that's not a matter of training. It's a matter of pick picking people who are predisposed to violence. That costs our local police quite a lot of money. It's one of the reasons I'm gonna be introducing the Recoup Act so that local jurisdictions are repaid for the funds that they expend due to ICE misconduct. With that, I yield back.
Speaker 1
Gentlemen, yes. But before I recognize Miss Bobert, Mister Gill, I understand you have a UC.
Speaker 30
Yep. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from the America First Policy Institute dated 03/03/2026, which details widespread and rampant fraud in Minnesota.
Speaker 1
Without objection to order, chair now recognize Miss Bobert from Colorado.
Speaker 33
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to summarize some of the things that have already been said here today, rather than ask these questions directly. The federal prosecutors, that we have now charged nearly 100 individuals across multiple Minnesota fraud schemes, including Feeding Our Future and related Medicaid, daycare, and autism programs, with 85 of those charged being of Somali descent. Governor Walz, your administration's department of education and department of human services failed to act on multiple early fraud warnings about feeding our future, allowing the theft of at least 250,000,000 in federal child nutrition funds that were supposed to feed hungry kids during the COVID-19 pandemic. Governor Waltz, I'd like to turn to the demographics and policy choices that enabled this.
Since you took office, the Somali population in Minnesota has grown substantially. Recently, FOX nine reported, the reporting puts the total over 107,000. Did your administration's soft on immigration policies, including expanded refugee programs and temporary protected status, contribute to that rapid growth?
Speaker 3
I couldn't speak to why people moved to Minnesota other than it's a great place.
Speaker 33
to policy and refugee programs and temporary protected status. According to the Center for Immigration Studies analysis of census data, 81% of Minnesota households headed by Somali immigrants receive one or more forms of public assistance, compared to just 21% of native-born Minnesotan households. Why is that disparity so extreme under your watch, sir?
Speaker 3
I can't speak specifically, congressman, but I would anticipate that new generation immigrants, whether they be Norwegian or whether they be Hmong or whether they be Somali, probably on the front end as they're establishing homeownership education.
Speaker 33
I think we should be bringing folks to our country that are going to contribute, and not just siphon off the tax dollars.
Speaker 33
Citizens. Mister Governor Walls, yes or no? Would stricter vetting of immigrants and refugees have prevented many of these fraudsters from entering our country in the first place?
Speaker 33
Do you agree with stricter vetting processes for those who are coming to our country?
Speaker 3
I don't care where you're coming from. If you commit fraud, you're going to jail in Minnesota. That's what I care about, and that's what I'm here for.
Speaker 33
Yes or no? Should Somali immigrants or any other immigrants who defraud American taxpayers and steal funds intended for hungry children be deported immediately?
Speaker 3
That's a decision for the federal government. You're responsible for immigration.
Speaker 33
These are Minnesota women who were brutally killed by illegal aliens in the state. You don't know who they are, so I would also assume that you did not attend their visuals or speak out to their families when they were brutally killed by illegal aliens.
Speaker 33
No. Just the hard hitting CNN ones. Yes or no, would you support ending Minnesota's sanctuary policies to stop these fraudsters and murderers from using your state as a safe haven?
Speaker 3
Well, as I said on June 12, we don't have sanctuary policies. And Tom Holman reiterated here in the past few weeks that we do not either, and that we are cooperating.
Speaker 33
As we thank you, governor. Will you direct local law enforcement to fully cooperate with ICE and federal agents, and follow the federal immigration laws that are currently on the books?
Speaker 3
They do. If they wanna do more, they can, but we have a floor that they have to. And that's been proven time and time again in Minnesota over this. That's why they're not leaving because we had cooperated.
Speaker 33
Okay. Final question for you, governor. There are multiple documented reports of Somali immigrants entering sham marriages, including siblings and close family members, solely for immigration purposes. Are you aware of these reports? And what, if anything, has your administration done to stop this kind of immigration fraud from happening in your state?
Speaker 3
States are not responsible for immigration screening, and I'm not familiar with what you're they're.
Speaker 33
Responsible for any vetting whatsoever. Federal government. Is happening under your watch, and there's immigration fraud. So we will do everything that we can. And, hopefully, you allow your local law enforcement officers to coordinate with federal agents when we are going after these immigration fraudsters.
Speaker 21
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, would you agree that fraud is not a victimless crime?
Speaker 21
And it's my understanding that in Minnesota, you as governor, do not have the unilateral power to pardon those convicted of state crimes. But you and Mister Ellison, and I think one other person, sit on a panel that can issue pardons. Is that correct?
Speaker 21
Thank you. In your time on that panel, can you recall ever pardoning an individual convicted of fraud?
Speaker 21
Okay. I'm not sure if it's true in Minnesota. But at the federal level, if a convicted fraudster is pardoned, that pardon can wipe out their obligation to pay restitution to the victims. Are any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? I know you're far away.
His name is Jason Galanis. Sound familiar?
Speaker 21
Jason Galanis, according to the federal judge who sentenced him to 15 years in prison, is a serial fraudster and a conman who defrauded a pension fund in a Native American tribe of $80,000,000. I'll put it in simpler terms. He stole money from the retirees. Do any of our witnesses know what federal prison Mr. Galanes is being held in?
Speaker 21
He's not because President Trump, our fraudster in chief, the namesake of the fraudulent Trump University, the fraudulent Trump Foundation, the fraudulent Trump organization, pardoned him and relieved him of the requirement to pay restitution to his victims. A member of this committee, Mister Jordan, recommended to President Trump that he be pardoned. Any of our witnesses familiar with this individual, his name is Jeremy Hutchison. Hutchinson.
Speaker 21
Mister Hutchinson is a former Arkansas state senator, Republican, convicted of a multimillion-dollar public corruption scheme, embezzlement, bribes, illegal campaign contributions, conspiracy to commit bribery. Mister Holman might know something about that. For passing legislation that benefited an orthodontist who was paying him off. President Trump's Department of Justice, in his first term, prosecuted him. A judge sentenced him to 8 years in prison and ordered him to pay $355,000 in restitution to his victims.
Any of our witnesses know where Mr. Hutchinson is serving that sentence today?
Speaker 21
He's not serving a sentence because President Trump pardoned him, relieving him of his restitution obligation. A corrupt politician prosecuted by Trump's justice department in the first term, pardoned by Trump in this term. Trump has pardoned fraudster after fraudster, denying victims. We talked about victims. Taxpayers, senior citizens, children, the restitution they deserve.
$1,300,000,000. That's the total that Trump's pardon fraudsters have been relieved of paying to their victims. The chairman called this hearing because he's concerned about fraud, about accountability. I share those concerns. But where is the hearing on the $1,300,000,000 Trump has relieved his pardon fraudsters from paying their victims?
Did those victims get a voice in this congress? There's a lot of outrage today. Raised voices on both sides. Will we raise our voices on behalf of those who have been victimized by President Trump's pardon fraudsters? Governor Waltz, what signal would it send if you and Attorney General Allison and the judge who sit on this panel were to pardon some of the fraudsters who have committed this fraud in Minnesota?
What signal would that send? What impact could that have?
Speaker 3
Congressman, I believe it would send a signal that we don't take it seriously because you have to put these people in jail, and they have to serve their lengthy sentences, and they have to do restitution.
Speaker 21
And just hypothetically here, if you were to pardon one of those individuals, how would you explain it to the victims of that fraud, the taxpayers across the country, those individuals who didn't get access to the social services they need because the money was stolen? How would you explain it to them?
Speaker 4
May I share, congressman, that generally when people get any kind of a pardon in Minnesota, they've done all their sentence. And governor Wallace is very careful to say, have you paid every pity you owe to people? Yeah. So that's kinda how we do pardons in Minnesota.
Speaker 21
Well, these folks have not paid their pennies, 1,300,000,000 worth of pennies.
Speaker 1
More time if you want. Sure. I mean, you mentioned Jason Galanas, and that piqued my interest, and I'm sure it did, mister Biggs, as well. And I think you are correct. He did defraud an Indian or a Native American pension fund.
Do you know who his partner was?
Speaker 1
It's Hunter Biden. And Jason Galanes served in prison for how long, mister Biggs? Years.
Speaker 1
He served in prison years. Many years. And they were equal partners, and Galinas blew the whistle during our Biden investigation, and he was raped. He was raped in prison right after that.
Speaker 1
President Trump? You weren't here as President Trump. You here as President Trump to get.
Speaker 1
Months, but you know more than anybody about everything. So chairman, chair recognizes Mr. Biggs from Arizona.
Speaker 9
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I'm glad you brought it up because of the 10 partners in that fraud that you mentioned, nine of them went to prison. Do you know who the one partner was that didn't go? Your buddy Hunter Biden. That's right.
Hunter Biden didn't go. And by the way, you didn't, you must not have been here. I don't think you were here when I introduced all these documents earlier before I had to leave to go to judiciary, talking about the 1,500 criminals pardoned by Joe Biden in one week, two dozen of them were fraudsters that had hundreds of millions of dollars of restitution forgiven by Joe Biden. I'm going now to mister Ellison.
Speaker 9
No. I'm no. I've had enough of you. Let's talk to mister Ellison. Mister Ellison, isn't it true that when you were a member of Congress, you sponsored the Money Remittances Improvement Act of 2014?
It's HR 43 86. Remember that?
Speaker 9
Yeah. I mean, I'm I get you. We all introduce lots of bills. But that bill's purpose was to give more authority to states to investigate remittance payments. Do you remember that?
Speaker 4
Congressman, I believe that the purpose of that bill was to facilitate financial transactions for Minnesotans who needed them.
Speaker 9
Well, in reality, you shifted remittance payment investigations to the states, and that was supported by the Somali American Remittances Association. You may not remember that, but that's what was. Congressman, could you remind me, did that bill ever pass? HR 43 86. So it was supported by the Somali American Resistance Association, and it was so important to you that you said, quote, this is a great day for diaspora communities around the country, including the Somali and Hmong communities.
And that that's something you said, and we know that the Somali population in Minnesota supported that bill. That bill was passed, I believe, in 2014. Minnesota started identifying large numbers of remittances, payments going overseas. And isn't it true that within four years of the bill passing, more than $100,000,000 had been flown out of the Minneapolis airport by Somalians? Do you know that?
Speaker 9
And then over the last two years, the TSA has identified over $700,000,000 being flown out and linked to Somali travel. Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 9
Under your tenure as a g, the amount of remittance payments going to Somalia, which, by the way, some estimates as high as 40% of all Somalia's GDP, comes from those remittance payments. And roughly the same number of 40% of families in Somalia receive some benefit, economic benefit directly from some remittance payments. So moving from that, do you know Salim Said?
Speaker 9
Ikran Mohammed? No. Abshir Omar? No. Okay.
So, in 2021, you met with a group of Somalis, business people. Those three people were there. Safari restaurant, Partners in Quality Care, also known as parties in nutrition, some of their named partners, and feeding our future representatives, including Afsir Omar, who said they were having difficulties because they were being investigated. And that conduct is very racist, xenophobic, and Islamophobic. Do you remember that meeting?
Speaker 4
Yes. I do. And I'll tell you that these are people who were fraudsters. They lied to me. They lied to the judge.
Yep. They lied to the state agencies. And that's why we contributed to them being convicted.
Speaker 9
Well, let's go on from that because you may not remember some of the things you said to them, specifically, and maybe we should play this video. I don't know if we do have the video queued up? If we have the video queued up with us, fine. Let's do it.
Speaker 4
In the right format, not you're out. Mhmm. You're done. Your contracts are.
Speaker 4
And so this has my attention. I'm extremely frustrated by it, but we are in the middle of a battle with the agencies now. Mhmm. And I can tell you this. Walls agrees with me that this piddly, stupid stuff running small people out of business is terrible.
Speaker 9
Because what you thought was terrible there was that these people were being investigated for fraud. That, and you later took $10,000 in campaign donations from these same individuals. Do you remember that?
Speaker 9
Because it's surely uncomfortable for you. But you took $10,000 from those same people.
Speaker 9
You're entitled to say it's inaccurate, but the facts are the facts. And my time's expired, mister chairman, but I do have some UC requests. Go ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Minnesota AG, who took $10,000 from convicted scammers, dismisses fraud scandal as political theater.
Speaker 9
Amy Bach alleges governor Tim Walz, attorney general Keith Ellison knew of Minnesota fraud. The objection. Waltz and Omar using ICE operations to distract from fraud scandal. The objection. Tim Waltz accused of stonewalling key probe as Somali fraud sweeps his state.
The objection. Conservatives blast dims Waltz for likening ICE agents to Nazi police force. Without objection. Tim Walz urges Minnesotans to resist federal occupation. Without objection.
Tim Waltz was a COVID-19 tyrant. Without objection. Anti-ice agitators set up blockade on Minneapolis Street to check drivers' license plates. Without objection, Minnesota attorney general's legal opinion could threaten some county agreements with ICE. That objection to ICE is restricted from Minneapolis-owned parking areas under Mayor Fry orders.
Minnesota mom jailed over COVID accuses Wallace of tyranny. Minnesota grandma jailed for defying Wallace. COVID lockdown order warns you do not want tyranny at this level, and mother ponders, and that's all.
Speaker 1
Without objection to the order. Chair, now I recognize Miss Presley from Massachusetts.
Speaker 15
I've been in Congress now for almost eight years, and one of the most meaningful moments that I experienced here was in the committee on oversight and reform under the great chairman Elijah Cummings. It was the first hearing to take place that I introduced in the house of representatives on the epidemic that is childhood trauma. Though I represent the Massachusetts 7th, one through line has remained true in my travels and conversations from Massachusetts to Minnesota to Illinois to Texas, and it is the devastating impacts of Trump's terror campaign on our nation's children. This administration's policies, including but certainly not limited to Operation Metro Surge, in my opinion, I would characterize as child abuse, child neglect, and inflicting childhood trauma. We are experiencing in real time the compounded adultifying of our children, where increasingly so a childhood is a privilege instead of a right.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently at the airport, where a dad approached me to talk about his six-year-old son who returned home from school, pleading and begging for his parents to give safe haven to his classmate, his best friend, for fear that if they did not do that, he would be deported. No child should have those concerns or carry that heavy burden, but this is the reality for our nation's children under Donald Trump's America. Frederick Douglass said it is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. We are certainly not building strong children. In my district, the Massachusetts 7th, Elainey was only two weeks old when her father was wrongfully taken by ICE, a trauma that she will carry for the rest of her life.
Again, so far, I'm speaking about the pleas of a six-year-old and the policy, rather the family separation of a two-week-old. In Minnesota, Liam Ramos was, only with the age of five years old, detained by ICE and sent to Texas, and he'll carry that trauma for the rest of his life. There are the children that are directly impacted, then there is that secondary trauma for those who have borne witness. While in Minnesota, I met with parents who have had to establish parental patrols armed with whistles, orange vests, and their cameras to try to keep their children safe. Green Street Elementary, it was just across the street from one of the murders that occurred in broad daylight, under Operation Metro Surge.
Around the country, the children of Renee Good, Keith Porter, Gerardo Campos, and dozens of other children whose parents were killed by ICE agents will carry that trauma the rest of their lives. Trauma in their bodies, their classrooms, their sleep. It shows up in the ways they cling to their parents at school drop off, and the silence of a child who used to speak freely in nightmares that no child should be visited by. Governor Walls is a former educator and coach. You work closely with young people experiencing traumatic events.
What effect does this have on them, their classmates, and their community? And have you heard from mental health professionals or pediatric providers about how this is showing up in your state?
Speaker 3
No. Well, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. First of all, I would say when I talk about Minnesota being one of the best states, if we're not first, it's usually because Massachusetts is. And I note that it is true, because you care about this. And you mentioned it correctly.
This is generational trauma that's been inflicted, whether it's learning loss that's happened or the trauma we've seen amongst our children. I say that as an educator, as governor, the deep concern, but as a parent of seeing this, what's happened to our children. We know that mental health issues will start to show up. We know that we'll see educational loss, and those have generational impacts on our economy and everything else. But I will note, your colleague mentioned me being a tyrant during COVID.
We had some of the lowest deaths due to COVID. Tyrant looks like children being dragged from their parents, old people being dragged out of their house without warrants, too dead on the streets. And your point, the world saw a piece of it on TV. I can tell you none of us are going to be the same, Congresswoman. We are going to deal with this, and we are going to put money into social service programs to address it while we tighten up fraud protections.
Because the idea is you have all these generous programs. Yes. And our people are healthier. Our people are more educated. Our economy's stronger.
So, thank you.
Speaker 15
Thank you. I ask Udana's consent to enter into the record of February 2026 article from Hecking's report titled parental stress raids and isolation.
Speaker 15
You know, as I close, I've always taken issue with the myth that children are resilient. It's something that people say because, I guess, it brings them comfort. The false notion that if you hurt kids, they will automatically heal. It allows policymakers to inflict harm and then look away. But children are not collateral for reckless and godless policies, and they should not be ignored.
Rather, we should center on children to understand the impacts of all these policies. And, Governor Walls, with these remaining.
Speaker 35
Mister chairman, thank you very much. To my two former colleagues, I would welcome you back, and I know that this is something that is not as easily done. And I recognize that. I want to thank our Methodist preacher for being here. I wanna put in some context, what you've heard today, that is probably to both of you, not a lot has changed up here.
We're still trying to play the gotcha game. We're still trying to do their job. That's what we are trying to do here. We come back and talk about children, yet we forget that President Biden, President Obama had 800,000 children that were lost by them that President Trump is still trying to find. We talk about not trusting ICE, which is a federal component, and yet the Boston bombers caused chaos.
I can't imagine why we wouldn't wanna form up a relationship instead of saying, ICE is no good. We don't want you. It is the federal component. So with all that said, in fairness to each of you, you've heard what we said today. So I would ask you, governor, and then I will say right up front.
I was kind of hoping that you might show up or both of you might show up because your Methodist, a Methodist preacher, is here and say, we didn't do everything right. We think there were a lot of things done wrong. We think we want to learn. We come and ask that you understand that this is something that happened in our midst. My Methodist preacher, I'm a global Methodist.
My Methodist preacher meets with me pretty often and makes sure that he knows and I know. I look for balance. I look for fairness. I look for objectivity. And I know you've not been placed in a very good position now, but I got 3 minutes left.
Governor, what did we do wrong here? What how do you wanna set that record straight? Because otherwise, it's gonna be he said against you guys. And I want you to tell me, where did we get it wrong on this side?
Speaker 3
We are. And I've said it publicly before. We disagreed on some issues, but we had a lot of conversations on the floor. Look. I think I agree with you.
As governor, I've taken accountability for this. I'm not gonna run again. I need to spend time fixing this. This does undermine trust in government. Do I wish there were things that could have happened earlier?
Yes. But in this job, wished to do it. I'm looking into where I see it. I can tell you this, congressman, that the safeguards we're putting in place are going to make a difference. I think other states can use them.
I think one of the things is I asked if helping in the partnership piece of this, understanding that this happens in all the states. I'm certainly not proud this happened. I certainly understand it happened on my watch. Whether it predated me or not, I'm here. I think some of the things is there's some legal changes we need around Medicaid eligibility issues that you're talking about that actually might get at this.
Because I would hope, congressman, you and I agree, these programs are valuable, and they need to go to the people who need them, and we need to stop the fraud that's in there. And I'm trying to explain to you what we've did from the beginning. These people continue to be a moving target, and they are very sophisticated. Still a problem? Is there still fraud happening?
Is there still a problem in we'll?
Speaker 3
I think there's more work to be done. Yes. I will tell you that. And we're working on it. I have a package that I introduced last week.
One of the things that I think is gonna be helpful, and I know you're working on it up here, is the ability to use AI. It's the pre-screening. What you don't wanna hear from us is, and I don't wanna hear, that we're arresting people after they did it. We need to stop it before it happened.
Speaker 3
We do. But if we're continuously chasing our tails, it's like I said, if you arrest
Speaker 35
Keep working with you because we've got to stop this. And so I would keep in that. You put together a list that we can send to other governors and say, here's what.
Speaker 4
Congressman Sessions, let me just say thank you for your question. I absolutely think there is more that all of us can do to protect the public dollar and get the money where it is intended to go. There are all kinds of ways to make sure.
Speaker 35
that we're talking about the lessons learned. Are you gonna show up today and take as the governor did and say, we made a mistake. I owe an apology to the people. We believe that what you've tried to do today to defend. I'm not trying to put you in a corner, general. I'm trying to get you because we're sitting here trying to get to where we're gonna go.
Speaker 4
I can assure you, congressman, that I am here to work to improve this system, and there are improvements that can be made. And your offer to work on a bipartisan basis to solve this fraud crisis, I am all in. And, if we could get to if we can get out of fixing the blame and get to fixing the problem, that would be an enormous thing for me. And I thank you for asking.
Speaker 35
Well, it's my hope that you will know that being here today, we're doing our job. Other people doing their job, but we've gotta get to where we can then say, and here is the problem, and we'll take so Governor did. I accept responsibility, and let's get on to fixing this, because tomorrow is a new day. Mister chairman, I appreciate it.
Speaker 6
He says that, but then he cuts me off. Thank you all, for coming here. I think it's really important. And, you know, reverend, you, I can tell that you care deeply about your community, and it takes courage to come before this committee, especially when you hear so much, to me, dismisinformation, also embedded in racist tropes, about your community. And so I wanted to ask you, you know, I think a lot of Americans, we think about it.
What compelled you to speak out and join hundreds of other faith leaders at the Minnesota Saint Paul Airport to protest against the violent ICE occupation of your community?
Speaker 5
Thank you for the question. I yes. I am here, just as I was that day at the airport, because I am representative of so many Minnesotans who are actively engaged in the work of neighboring. And I'm also here as I was that day, because there are so many Minnesotans for whom it is not safe to speak out today.
Speaker 6
And I'll tell you, you know, we're learning a lot. I think the country, the whole country, is learning a lot from all of you and your neighboring and showing love and showing up for your community. And I know it took a lot of courage for even some of the elected officials to stand up and say, you know, not on our watch. You know, we talk about the fearlessness that is needed sometimes to fight for our rights. And some people will continue to gaslight folks and cause domestic terrorists to surveil us more, to try to bully us and intimidate us into silence.
And I just want the Minnesota people to know. I know my district sees you all, and we say continue it. You are freeing all of us when you continue to speak up, and you're protecting all of us as well. In response to, of course, the powerful local resistance, you know, one of the things they keep saying is it's ended. It's done.
You heard my colleague from Boston, Congresswoman Diana Presley, talk about trauma. It's not done. There needs to be a lot of healing, and I don't think they want to fund that or support that. But I, I'm asking just as myself and many of us in my district are wondering, is it truthful? Are they done?
Unfortunately,
Speaker 5
It's not over. As we heard, there are still 650 ICE agents in Minnesota. That means there is still fear and trauma for our children and for our immigrant and refugee neighbors. And it, as Miss Priestly named, the trauma will go on, and we have much work to do in healing and caring for, especially those who've been most victimized in this.
Speaker 6
So I want to talk about intention. What's the intent of this hearing? What's the intent of all of it? I think intention is important because, you know, for the chairman, if I can submit for the record, article titled Fraud Focus. Why is Trump granting clemency to convicted fraudsters?
Speaker 6
Because I see this. And even though you're here, you have nothing to hide. These folks are not here. I don't get to question them. I don't get to say to the guy that committed $200,000,000 Medicare fraud, who just got pardoned by Trump.
I don't get to ask Jared Kushner, you know, why is your dad go from literally, in France, the title of the article is prison to Paris. Literally, committing fraud, he pardons his son-in-law's father, and now he's an ambassador. You see all that happening? It's like, well, what's the intention here? They're creating a world's largest paramilitary under the direct control of the president who has made it clear that he intends to crush descent, target entire cities, and rig elections.
He literally is telling us he's going to send ICE agents out on election day to intimidate and target our community. He's not lying. He's going to do it. And I think we need to be very much prepared. At the same time, intention.
Governor, I seeing him in this administration freeze, funding freeze, and blaming all of these people. Like, I hope people don't blame my community for everything Trump's doing. You know what it mean? Like, I mean, can you imagine right now the impact that this is happening? What I mean, can you what impact is it gonna really have right now?
I mean, you're talking about today, this is cut off, and he's refusing to let go of the money that, again, Minnesota is supposed to rightfully get appropriated.
Speaker 3
Four hundred thousand children lose health care, pregnant women, and elderly, and rural hospitals will be severely impacted and potentially close.
Speaker 6
It's hard because I wonder if they would do that in Kentucky where they have fraud, in Tennessee where they have fraud.
Speaker 3
Their own numbers show that our error rate is 2.1 percent. The national average is 6 percent.
Speaker 6
I know. You guys testified about it. Attorney general, even though, you know, you gave everybody else 30 seconds. I need to ask you. I mean, you're here today.
What could you be doing right now? Your attorney general, you do what today if you were at work instead of here, to be honest, I mean, can you explain what's back home that you have work to do at home? Like, what can you be doing instead?
Speaker 4
The legislature is in session, and I'm supposed to meet with house caucus leaders tonight, hoping to make that, so that we can do more to stop fraud.
Speaker 6
Well, I'll tell you. You know, I'm always reminded, and please bear with me, Chairman Kromer. Our amazing, you know, former chair Elijah Cummings. First hearing I ever had as a freshman was on the high cost of prescription drugs. It was incredible.
It was powerful. It was real. And the intent there was, let's make sure people that get sick are taken care of. I'm just so tired of these hearings that are politicized in a way that is not consistent. Because if he's doing this, why are you targeting innocent people?
Thank you.
Speaker 1
Thank you, Mr. Leave. I gave you an extra minute and fifteen seconds to criticize the chairman of the committee. So, but I do like Mr. Leave. Chair recognizes Mr. Gill from Texas.
Speaker 30
Thank you, mister chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to be here. Governor Walter, are you familiar with the early intensive developmental and behavioral intervention benefit?
Speaker 30
Got it. It provides services for autism patients. Is that right? That is correct. Got it.
And when were you, when did you become governor?
Speaker 30
In 2019. Okay. So, using 2018 as a baseline, do you know what that program paid in Medicaid claims?
Speaker 30
It's about $671000. Do you know what that program paid in Medicaid claims in 2024?
Speaker 30
$3,342,000,000. That's about a 500x increase over six years. Were there 500 times the number of autism patients in that time period?
Speaker 30
That doesn't sound reasonable. Right? Now, there was a 500x increase in the number of autism patients in six years. Right?
Speaker 30
In September. So agree that that doesn't sound reasonable. Would you also agree that a single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar too much to tolerate? Yes. Yep.
And would you agree that as governor, ultimately, you're responsible if tax dollars are defrauded?
Speaker 30
Yep. Would you also agree that calling somebody racist is a serious accusation?
Speaker 30
I think it's my, you if is that a serious accusation to make about somebody? I
Speaker 30
Alright. Well, let's go there. Is it racist for a government official to identify fraud? No. No.
Is it Islamophobic?
Speaker 3
To identify fraud? To identify fraud. I no. I don't believe it would be.
Speaker 30
How come multiple whistleblowers have said that your administration told them not to say anything about widespread fraud across multiple agencies because doing so would be considered racist or Islamophobic.
Speaker 30
Well, that's what your administration has said and has told whistleblowers. And as you just testified, the buck stops with you. It's what you stated in your statement whenever you announced you weren't running again. Are you familiar with Faye Bernstein?
Speaker 30
She stated publicly that she's a Democrat. She's only voted Democrat in her life. She's also stated publicly that she was retaliated against and called racist, and that her work responsibilities were diminished whenever she was highlighting fraud within your administration. Are you familiar with that? I couldn't speak to.
Speaker 30
You would agree that the tone in your administration comes from you ultimately. Right? The tone is that? The tone of how you
Speaker 30
Wait. It doesn't sound like you're protecting them. We heard from representative Kristen Robbins, quote, we have dozens of credible whistleblower reports saying the exact same thing, that people were told not to say anything because they'd be called racist or Islamophobic or it would hurt the state. You think it's racist or Islamophobic to highlight and try to stop fraud?
Speaker 30
It's not. But that was the message your administration was sending to multiple whistleblowers. I can't speak.
Speaker 30
You can't speak to that. You know, you don't want to speak to that, I think.
Speaker 3
Absolutely not. They have strong protections in Minnesota and lots of pass. And the pass go for.
Speaker 30
The way. Hearing from whistleblower is Faye Bernstein, who has stated that she is a Democrat. She's only ever voted Democrat. Says that she was near campaign for trying to make the leadership aware of illegal contracting practices. Why do you?
Speaker 3
Think that happened? I can't speak to that, Congressman, because we don't do it.
Speaker 3
I do know that we have strong whistleblower protections, and I can't speak.
Speaker 30
to not hear what the whistleblowers are saying. According to another report, quote, there's just a continuous effort to stifle you, to shut you up, and it's impossible to overcome. Your administration's response to whistleblowers has also been described as, quote, nearly unbearable retaliation. We've heard claims that, quote, they've been denied vacations, promotions, and that it's hurt people's careers to speak out against fraud. Do you think that had something to do with the prevalence of fraud in your administration?
Speaker 30
They own a lot of employees. And as you have said, the buck stops with you, and your administration has treated whistle blowers like absolute dirt. That's a big reason why we've seen so much of our hard-earned tax dollars.
Speaker 3
Defrauded. There's a look. Congressman told you we have strong protections. We have the an offsup officer's.
Speaker 30
Current employees in your administration who have intimate knowledge of what has been going on, who have all stated that they faced retaliation for calling out fraud. I can't speak to them about what they felt. And time is up. I yield back.
Speaker 37
Mister chairman, it's outrageous that this is what we're choosing to spend our time on the oversight committee. At the first one.
Speaker 37
At the first one, yes, fraud. Because let's talk about fraud. At the first one of these ridiculous series of hearings on Minnesota, I brought up the dozens of horrific, ongoing corruption scandals in the Trump administration. But I know I'm very scared of Donald Trump, so we won't be talking about those. But those are the things that we should be investigating on the oversight committee.
Now we have another one. The Department of Justice was caught red-handed withholding explosive and credible FBI witness interviews of a woman who accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her when she was a minor. Shouldn't we hold a hearing on that? Shouldn't Pam Bondi be here forced to testify why she is violating the law that Congress passed, the Epstein Files Transparency Act, nearly unanimously along with this committee's subpoena. But since the Republican majority instead wants to have a conversation about Minnesota, then let's do that.
The Trump Epstein regime's deployment of thousands of ICE agents, Donald Trump's personal secret police force, is a fascist disgrace. These untrained agents terrorized the people of Minnesota, violated their rights, and even shot them dead in the streets. I wanna remind us all about what happened to Alex Pretty, an intensive care nurse, murdered by CBP agents while trying to protect a woman that the officers were assaulting. After his murder, Steven Miller said Alex was, quote, a domestic terrorist who tried to assassinate federal law enforcement, a would-be assassin, and an assassin. Christie Nome said Alex was, quote, committing an act of domestic terrorism.
She said, I don't know any peaceful protester who shows up with a gun and ammunition rather than a sign. She accused Alex Pretty of brandishing a weapon, despite video evidence showing the gun never left its holster. Greg Bovino said, quote, this looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement. And Donald Trump said Alex was, quote, a gunman whose weapon was loaded with two additional full magazines and ready to go. He said Alex was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist, obviously projecting about himself.
Dictators in other countries would literally be impressed at how brazen these lies and propaganda spread by the Trump regime and Christy Nome are. So, Governor Walsh, I wanna thank you and Attorney General Ellison for putting up with all of the lying and hypocrisy from the Republican majority. Governor, is the Trump administration attempting to block Minnesota state and local police from investigating the murders of Alex Pretty and Renee Nicole Good?
Speaker 3
I believe we're not getting any cooperation. We were told we would not be part of that. Attorney general may know more.
Speaker 4
Yes, congresswoman. We have been told that we would not have access to the investigative file, which would include evidence that would be relevant to the investigation in both cases. And even there's one case shooting incident that does where that was nonfatal, and that one has also been frozen out in that as well.
Speaker 37
Yeah. And two follow-up questions on whichever one of you wants to answer. Why do you think that might be the case, and is this out of the ordinary?
Speaker 4
It is wildly out of the ordinary. I can tell you that our local FBI, ATF, even before operation metro surge, you didn't, you know, you heard about ICE Matters, but you didn't hear about it nearly as much as we do now. This is an extraordinary departure from what we know, and we routinely work with federal partners. And we haven't never had problems until now like this.
Speaker 3
I would just speculate that they need to take accountability for it, and I think they understood what the world saw, that this was improper, and it needs to have justice for these families. And it doesn't appear, I hope those questions are being asked of Secretary Noam today.
Speaker 37
And Governor Walls and Attorney General Ellison, are you committed to getting to the truth about the murders of Alex Pretty and Renee Good?
Speaker 37
Thank you. We need to hold this administration accountable for these murders, starting by impeaching Christine Nome for gross misconduct, lying to Congress, and failure to uphold the laws and the Constitution. I yield back.
Speaker 24
Thank you. We'll go for Governor Walls again. A major focus of today's hearing has been the misuse of federal funds distributed through the Child Care and Development Block Grant. This program is supposed to be helping working families afford child care, and I think the taxpayers expect these programs to be protected from waste and fraud. Most programs states operate these programs responsibly.
The national improper payment average is about 4%. As you know, I kind of watch what's going on in Minnesota because it's a state adjacent to Wisconsin. And it's amazing if you're a congressman, the number of people who get Minnesota and Wisconsin confused. But when that number climbs above the national average of 4%, it should be a warning sign that oversight has failed. Minnesota's improper payment rate got up to 11%.
It's not a small administrative mistake over almost 3 times the national average. That is a system that's clearly not being monitored the way it should be. When Wisconsin had a similar program several years ago, when I was in the state legislature, in 2010, we uncovered fraud in our child care assistance program. Wisconsin did not look away. We took responsibility, implemented serious reforms, and those reforms included expanding background checks for providers, creating a dedicated fraud investigation unit, strengthening eligibility requirements, and instituting a comprehensive audit system.
That would have been Scott Walker as governor. Because of these reforms, Wisconsin now has an improper payment of under 1%. So, in other words, he almost totally wiped out the problem. Didn't happen by accident. It happened because Governor Walker took responsibility and acted quickly.
He thought fraud was a problem. Governor Walts, Minnesota, had similar warning signs. Investigators, auditors, even internal officials kept raising concerns about fraud in social service systems. It didn't just cost taxpayers money. These programs are meant to help children and working families.
When fraud drains millions of dollars from these programs, that money is not reaching the people it was intended to serve. First of all, Governor Walls, when did your administration first become aware that fraud risks were escalating in Minnesota's child care assistant program? You were kind of an outlier in the whole country.
Speaker 3
Well, thank you, Congressman. This dates back to about 2012 that the action has been being taken. And as I stated earlier, on our first days in office, we started taking action. I would ask if I could on this. Anything that Governor Walker did, I would appreciate if you'd show us what those actions were.
We're more than happy to implement them, and that's what we've started over the last seven years.
Speaker 24
Reports indicate that some providers continued receiving payments even after the fraud concerns were raised. Was that a decision made by your administration, and who specifically do you feel did not?
Speaker 3
I can't speak specifically to which those were. Decisions are made at the department level, but I can't speak to what those allegations were.
Speaker 24
We're told it was still 11% under your administration. When fraud indicators appear in a program funded by federal taxpayers, do you believe the responsible action is to pause payments until those concerns are investigated?
Speaker 3
I don't think it's that simple. As I said, these programs provide a really important service, child care is a critical one. The issue is trying to make sure the legitimate payments are made and that you're stopping fraud. So I don't think in all cases that pausing those payments is the right action.
Speaker 24
Okay. I just in general, I'll say when the fraud percentage beats 11% in Minnesota, and we got it down under one percent in Wisconsin, I think it's a cause for concern. I'll give you another question because a little bit of this hearing wandered a little bit to what happened in your streets out there. When any agency comes to Wisconsin, any federal agency, I've talked to several of our sheriffs. Could be ICE, could be Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, could be FBI, could be Secret Service. Our sheriffs always try to coordinate with the federal agencies, ask them what they need.
You need us to set up a perimeter. Can we help you by transporting people to the local jail? Do you just want some squad cars parked around to presumably keep troublemakers at bay? That was not done in Minnesota. Like, it's routinely done in certainly all of the world.
Speaker 3
Think that's a correct characterization. I think Tom Holman indicated that those things do happen and have been happening.
Speaker 24
During the time in which you had the serious riots or whatever you want to call them.
Speaker 24
Minnesota, I believe that you did not reach out for your state law enforcement to help out, federal law enforcement, in part because you're a sanctuary state. And.
Speaker 3
That is incorrect. Tom Holman indicated we are not. I don't know what to tell you, Congressman. We did. We wanna cooperate.
That's not what you saw on the streets. Right. Right.
Speaker 3
You saw ICE agents shooting people in the head. You saw little children being dragged out. You saw ICE agents indiscriminately throwing smoke grenades. And I think what the world saw was peaceful resistance and a defense of their neighbors. So this is not about immigration reform.
This was about an untrained force that came in not with the intention of immigration.
Speaker 24
I would say that you did not have the interaction between local law enforcement and federal agencies that is routinely seen around the country. Thank you.
Speaker 38
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thirteen months until the Trump's administration and this committee has failed to hold one hearing or one open investigation to hold this president accountable. It makes you wonder, are we the oversight committee or the overlook committee? Because there is no shortage of matters that demand our attention, I can share a few that come to mind. This is a president who has turned the White House into an ATM.
And in Trump's Washington, the fastest path to a pardon or a position is to donate to Trump's ballroom or inauguration. Last year, the Trump family added billions to its network through pay-for-play schemes and corrupt deals. Last month, the president surged ICE into Minneapolis in an abusive operation that led to American deaths and repeated violations of constitutional rights under the First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments. Also last month, the administration struck shady oil deals after the administration invaded Venezuela. Two weeks ago, the president blocked a Michigan bridge from opening after he was reportedly lobbied by a wealthy businessman who owns a competing bridge.
Last week, the president launched a war on Iran without the consent of Congress, without an imminent threat to our safety, and without any plan presented to the American people. And right now, hour by hour, this administration is engaging in an active and egregious cover-up of the Epstein files. Yet today, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are once again showing they are more interested in partisan politics than good governance. If you are serious about fraud, you investigate it, you prosecute it, you strengthen safeguards to prevent it. What you don't do is weaponize it.
You don't denigrate entire communities with racist smears. You don't unleash abusive enforcement actions that undermine trust and due process. You don't illegally cut off all Medicaid funding, which will lead to innocent and sick Americans dying. And you don't fire inspector generals and push out career prosecutors actively working to defeat that fraud. So, A.
Ellison, the US attorney's office in Minnesota has at least six prosecutors resigned due to the chaos ISIS caused. Can you briefly describe how these resignations have affected our ability to prosecute fraud?
Speaker 4
Thank you, Congresswoman. And, in fact, it's a great deal more than six prosecutors. It's many more than that. In fact, one of the prosecutors who resigned in protest was one of the ones who helped to lead the prosecution of the Feeding Our Future defendants. And it's they've 57 have been convicted.
So the loss of those people is dramatically harming our effort to prosecute fraud. Because in Minnesota, we have 87 county attorneys. The AG does Medicaid fraud, and the federal government prosecutes fraud that is germane to its jurisdiction. It operates as a web. So it's not like the feds are doing it and nobody else is.
They're doing the ones they are supposed to do. We're doing the ones we are supposed to do, and the counties are doing the ones they are supposed to do. If you take the feds out, that leaves an enormous gap. And it means then criminals are shrewd. I mean, the reality is that fraudsters are pretty smart, and some of them are clever, and know that if there's nobody going, if there's no federal, the prosecutor's numbers are depleted, you're going to see worse behavior.
And I do fear that, which is one of the reasons why we need to pass stronger legislation in Minnesota to help my office prosecute Medicaid fraud.
Speaker 38
Thank you. And there's deeper hypocrisy here. Donald Trump was found guilty by a jury of his peers on 34 felony counts of fraud. He has pardoned a businessman convicted of defrauding a Native American tribe to the tune of 60,000,000. He has pardoned a Florida CEO convicted of running a $1,300,000,000 Medicare and Medicaid fraud scheme.
He has pardoned a nursing home executive who pleaded guilty to a $38,000,000 tax scheme. I could go on. In fact, over half of the president's pardons have been for wire fraud, securities fraud, tax fraud, bank fraud, and health-care fraud. And several of these pardons have come after massive political contributions to the president. In many cases, these pardons meant victims will never see a dime of restitution.
House Judiciary Committee Democrats estimate the pardons for fraud-related crimes could deprive victims of more than $1,000,000,000 owed to them and American taxpayers. So this president is pardoning his wealthy donors and taking money out of the pockets of hardworking Americans. He is handing out get out of jail free cards to fraudsters, while shamelessly using fraud as a pretext to go after perceived political enemies. What I believe is simple. Whether you are a president, a billionaire, or a regular American who has committed fraud, you should be held accountable.
And with that, I yield back.
Speaker 39
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing. I appreciate the witnesses being here. I do wanna respond to something that was said earlier by one of my colleagues across the aisle about fraud in Alabama and the diff and he actually raised the question, why isn't the governor of Alabama here? It's very simple. Alabama actually did something about the fraud in SNAP benefits.
We acted on that immediately. I would argue that if the state of Minnesota had done that, this hearing wouldn't be necessary. So I'm gonna ask you, Governor Walts. Is it true that your department of education was sued by Feeding Our Future for racial discrimination and approving food sites?
Speaker 3
I don't know exactly what they were sued for, but I know there was a suit.
Speaker 39
Didn't the Department of Education have serious concerns about fraud, though, and feeding our future in their sights as far back as 2020?
Speaker 3
That's correct, Congressman. They brought it to the attention of the USDA.
Speaker 39
And then your department of education determined there was fraud occurring because of incredibly large, implausible reimbursement requests?
Speaker 3
Well, I think at the time during the COVID pandemic, there was how these meals were being delivered and what safeguards because, as you know, the USDA changed the rules on these to make it easier for food to get out.
Speaker 39
Yeah. But one of the fraudsters' sites, Safari restaurant, claimed that they served the same number of meals in one month as the entire Saint Paul school district. In their transcribed interview, your commissioner of education said that this would be impossible. Governor Walts, you're an educator. Is it plausible for a single restaurant whose owner has already been convicted and is in jail for fraud to actually be serving that number of meals?
Speaker 39
But the question would be, why didn't the state of Minnesota, that was, wasn't that a federal conviction?
Speaker 3
It was turned over by the state. It was the state that found it. It was the folks at the Department of Education who turned it over with our federal partners. They prosecuted them.
Speaker 39
Well, when we had the hearing with the state legislators, I mean, without exception, they all testified that they were bringing this to the attention of the state, the state wasn't doing anything about it.
Speaker 3
That those legislators run the oversight committee. They never held a single hearing until just very recently. And the chairwoman of that committee is running for governor. So I can't speak to why, but I can tell you that we certainly.
Speaker 39
Try to politicize something that was reported years ago. I mean, you could argue that she anticipated that you would resign or retire or however you wanna characterize it, but I doubt that was the case. I think I wanna be as respectful as I can be, and, you know, we've served together. I'm not one of these guys that's trying to score political points. I try to solve problems, but I don't think we can have a transference here of intention, for one legislator that you say is running for governor when these issues were raised years ago.
Speaker 39
Not all of them, because the fraud continued, and it has run into the billions of dollars now. I mean, the two guys, the two people that were convicted in federal court, that was $250,000,000. But we now know that this has gone into the billions. And the question and I again
Speaker 3
Congressman, can you tell me where the evidence is on the 9,000,000,000? Because we're looking for it. We're doing what we can. I mean, all the local press and all the folks in Minnesota are saying that's not the case. We certainly, you know, if every dollar you put out there, if you say it could be fraud, but there's no evidence to that.
And the problem with that is, and this story came out last week, people in the US attorney's office said when you're putting out these numbers that aren't true, it undermines our ability to tackle the actual fraud.
Speaker 39
I'm not, I didn't say 9,000,000,000. I said that I think it's run into billions. And that's not just in Minnesota. Again, we've had during COVID, the fraud was massive throughout the country, particularly in the payroll protection plan and the enhanced unemployment. I think it begs the question, mister chairman, of why we haven't been more aggressive in going after this all over the country.
The fraud that was mentioned by my colleague was SNAP benefits, and that's in California, his own state, it's a $180,000,000. But to California's credit, they're doing something about it. So that's the issue here. I'm not interested in scoring political points. I'm trying to stop the fraud.
Speaker 39
To get to a place where the public at the state and federal, in terms of state and federal spending, has confidence that we're probably managing the money and wherever fraud occurs that we're aggressively pursuing it. I think that's the question that has been raised about how your administration handled this. Mister chairman, I yield back.
Speaker 3
If I just say, that's fair enough, Congressman. I think that spirit is what we're trying to get at. I do think it's nationwide. I think we should share information. I think we're being as aggressive as possible, but fair enough.
Speaker 38
Mister chairman, I'd like to seek recognition for a unanimous consent request. Actually, unanimous consent to enter into the record a 06/17/2025 memorandum from the House Judiciary Committee Democrats titled House Judiciary Committee Democrats memorandum regarding president Trump's pardons cheap victims out of an astounding $1,300,000,000 in restitution and fines, allowing fraudsters, tax evaders, drug traffickers, and keep ill gotten gains, which estimates the prop I'm sorry. Which estimates that Trump's reckless pardons robbed victims and left perpetrators walk away without paying 1,300,000 in restitution.
Speaker 1
Objection to the order. Chair recognizes Miss Stainsbury from New Mexico.
Speaker 40
Good morning. Good afternoon, as it is. Mister chairman, thank you for having this hearing. I know it's been a long morning for everyone here as witnesses today, and it's been several long months for the people of Minnesota. We thank you for your service.
Now let me just start by saying at the beginning of my comments here what I said at the beginning of the last hearing that we had on this exact same subject, which is that we must unequivocally root out waste, fraud, and abuse and prosecute any crimes wherever they happen, whether those crimes are happening in social service programs at the state level, or whether we have an out of control president and administration that is committing crimes, waste, fraud, and abuse inside the White House and within our federal agencies, including deploying thousands of armed agents into our communities using per diems that are costing millions of taxpayer dollars every day to terrorize our communities, to violate their civil rights, to violate due process rights, and that have resulted in the murder of two U.S. citizens. And so my question is, why are we not conducting oversight over that? Two US citizens who have been murdered by the federal government. Renee Good, a Minneapolis mom, was murdered. Alex Pretty, a Minneapolis VA nurse, was murdered.
Nurul Amin Shah Alam, a partially blind refugee in Buffalo, New York, dead after being left in a parking lot by DHS without even a pair of shoes on. The kidnapping of children like Liam Ramos. And an administration that has launched an unauthorized war in The Middle East with six service members dead and over 160 schoolchildren and their teachers dead and buried yesterday. Never in my life have I seen a greater disregard for the constitution, for the rule of law, for human life, and basic human dignity, and senseless cruelty than I have seen in this administration, whether that is at home or abroad, and they can't answer the most basic questions about why. And meanwhile, people who should be investigating these crimes are partying and drinking on taxpayer dollars.
We've got the US DOJ AG refusing to release the Epstein files or even acknowledge their basic human dignity. And yesterday, the secretary of DHS testifying and lying under oath in the United States Senate, refusing to acknowledge Alex Pretty and Renee Nicole Goods' death, its murder, and the harm that she personally has caused by calling it domestic tour terrorism. That is what we should be investigating. And the billions of taxpayer dollars that are being used to support this cruelty and out-of-control administration. Now I know it's been a long day, and Mister Ellison, I know you have had a long day especially.
I wanna say thank you for your service, Governor. You have inspired the nation by helping to organize, along with the faith community, our communities in resistance, in strength. And I agree with you, reverend, that silence is complicity, and that is why we have to speak. And so, mister Ellison, I just want to ask you one question. What do you think Congress should be investigating?
What should we be investigating here today?
Speaker 4
Congresswoman, I'd be very grateful if the committee really dug into the use of force policy at ICE. I think it needs greater training. I think it needs clearly better guidelines. I think there needs to be a policy of cooperation between state and federal investigators in the FBI. And I think there should be a general policy that leaders not make statements about blame or guilt, you know, immediately after the tragedy.
And they should try to wait and figure out what actually happened before they make those kinds of statements that you identified.
Speaker 40
Thank you, AJ. And I'll just say this. I've heard a lot of political theatre here today. I think it's disgraceful. Our job is the oversight committee.
Our job is to oversee the administration and the agencies that it executes on, and we are failing the American people, and this administration is failing the world. With that, I yield back.
Speaker 1
General lady yields back. I might add that it's my understanding the Homeland Security Committee is investigating the two deaths in Minnesota. Chair now recognizes Mr. Fallon from Texas.
Speaker 36
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walts, do you believe the 70,000-strong Somali community as a whole has made a positive impact on your state? I do. So you'd be of the opinion fair to say that the Somali community has successfully assimilated and is making Minnesota better?
Speaker 36
Yes. I'm just curious by what metric you'd come to that conclusion. I just looked at some hard data. And do you have any idea what percentage of the native born Minnesotans, all races, live in poverty in your state right now?
Speaker 36
I'll share it with you. It's 8%. For the Somali community, it's 52%. How about receiving food stamps?
Speaker 36
Run it down with you. It's 7%, and then compared to 54% in the Somali community. And then don't have or have it, don't have at least a high school diploma for all Minnesotans. It's 5%. Somali community, it's 39%.
One family member, at least, on Medicaid, it's 18% for Minnesota, 73% for the Somali community. And receiving welfare of some form, it's 21%, and that's 81% for the Somali community. Do you, governor, do you happen to know what the percentages of all those who have currently been charged in this staggering social services fraud scheme were native-born Minnesotans, what percentage?
Speaker 36
I think it was 85 out of 98, which comes out to 13%, Minnesotan, and 87%, Somali, Minnesotan. So I think this is an instance, perhaps, of where woke gets slapped by data. Governor, there's been billions stolen over seven plus years right under your nose, and there's only two explanations. It's either you were in on it or you weren't smart enough to see it. It's either criminal negligence or wild incompetence.
And the only way this kind of fraud can reach this scale is if there are people in power that are colluding, collaborating, and willfully blinding themselves to the realities around them. And in oversight, when we do investigations, it's rare for us to have whistleblowers because they face retribution and punishment and resentment, and they could be ostracized. And it's difficult, uncomfortable, and sometimes it's even dangerous. So when we have an, when we're having investigation and we have even a couple of whistleblowers, it's very valuable to us because they provide invaluable insight. Do you have any idea how many whistleblowers are working in Minnesota or working with the oversight committee?
Speaker 3
I do not. We have our own strong protections in the OLA, the individual.
Speaker 36
It's 30. I mean, I haven't seen that in five plus years in Congress. 30. Governor, on 09/16/2025, did you announce your reelection bid? Pardon me?
On September. Did you announce it know?
Speaker 36
In September, roughly last fall, did you announce you're running for governor again?
Speaker 36
Okay. And then I think you said in a quote here, we've made historic progress, but we're not done yet. And then just three and a half months later, on January 5, you dropped out. I gotta ask you why. I mean, were you tired of making historic progress?
Speaker 3
No, congressman. I think I've done the job for two terms, and I said talking with my family. And I said I wanna focus on doing the job, not running.
Speaker 36
The facts are your leadership and, really, your lack of leadership is Laura has been responsible for one of the largest rip offs of the American taxpayer in our history. And you traded, I believe, political expediency, the currency political expediency, for your integrity. And, you know, mister chairman, I don't know if you know this, but it's been widely reported that in 2008, when Barack Obama was choosing his vice presidential candidate, he had three criteria. He wanted to make sure he picked somebody that wasn't as smart as him and had less talent and charisma, and couldn't possibly outshine him, so he picked Joe Biden. And then Joe Biden in 2020 used the exact same criteria.
He wanted to make sure he picked somebody who wasn't as smart as him, had less talent and charisma, and wouldn't outshine him. And he picked Kamala Harris. And then in 2024, governor, I think it's very evident why Kamala Harris picked you. The talent pool.
Speaker 36
Chairman, the talent pool is just shallow. Brother, we have hit the shore, and I yield back.
Speaker 41
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I have some concerns about not just the tactics of ICE in Minnesota and everywhere. I have concerns about the fact that Renee Good and Alex Pretty were killed, and there has been no real investigation by federal law enforcement and federal authorities. And, so I would ask, attorney general Allison, do you know if the FBI is actually investigating what happened?
Speaker 4
Thank you for the question, Congressman. The information we have is that there was an affirmative statement by deputy, a g deputy a g Todd Blanche, that they were not investigating. They're in a good manner. On the Alex Pretty, we received information that was similar and that there might be an investigation, but that the state would be excluded. So in the first one, they're not doing an investigation, and we can't have the information.
And the second one, they might be doing an investigation, and the state cannot be part of it.
Speaker 41
And I know this is asking for your opinion, but why do you think they would want to exclude the state in the Alex Pretty investigation?
Speaker 4
Well, I, you know, I don't wanna speculate as to what somebody's motives might be, but I can just tell you this. It is a sharp departure from the norm. Normally, we investigate these things jointly. And when somebody doesn't want another investigator there, sometimes you might wonder if there's something that they don't want to come out.
Speaker 41
And it's my understanding that the federal government is better positioned to do such an investigation and to be able to prosecute such crimes because there might be federal immunity. It's my understanding federal agents are typically immune from state prosecution if their actions were directly tied to their official duties. What is your understanding of that?
Speaker 4
So my understanding starts with the supremacy clause in the US constitution, and then there's a lot of cases. The first one is something called in Renagle, and then there's a number of cases after that. What it says is that if a federal agent could, commits a arguably commits a crime and is indicted or charged, that the federal agent would have an affirmative defense of saying that I was doing my job, and I was doing it in a necessary and proper way. What I was doing was necessary and proper. If they could meet both of those criteria, a court might grant their motion to dismiss.
If they cannot, the matter is going to face a jury. And as a matter of fact, there was a case involving, you may remember the case involving Randy Weaver in Idaho. That case actually was cleared by the Ninth Circuit to go to trial, but the local authorities decided not to pursue it.
Speaker 41
And to prosecute Renee Good and Alex Pretty, you would need evidence. Right? Has the FBI or anyone given you or been able to cooperate with you on any evidence in this case?
Speaker 4
The no. At this point, they have precluded the state from access to the evidence, but there's a lot of other evidence out there. And we're also pursuing all options to get access to the evidence.
Speaker 41
Do you think with what you have now, you could prosecute Renee Good and Alex Pretty at the state level?
Speaker 4
I think, theoretically, it would be possible, but I would think it would be imprudent until you see the federal file because, you know, when you're a prosecutor, you should know the whole file. You should have evaluated all the evidence before you make a charging decision or bring a matter to the grand jury.
Speaker 41
Because my concern here is that not only are these terrible things happening to US citizens, but there's no accountability. Right? There's no mechanism. There is a cover up for the people who are at ICE and other law enforcement who do the wrong thing, and it's making everyone at those agencies look bad. It's making our country look bad on the international stage.
And so, you know, we have legislation at the federal level. I'm a cosponsor of the Stop Excessive Force and Immigration Act. We're trying to do things tangibly to make things better. We need some support on the other side of the aisle, but certainly, we're gonna push forward anyway. I guess I would end by saying, what would you ask congress to do to help get the accountability that we're looking for?
And I'll ask either one.
Speaker 4
I think that for anyone, Republican or Democrat, hoping to get public trust restored to immigration agents, there must be clear protocols around it guarding recruitment, training, and protocols on use of force. There must be an investigation. States must be involved, and there's more to discuss.
Speaker 3
I would agree with the attorney general that it's about restoring faith, that people don't trust what they're doing, and we need them to be able to do their job.
Speaker 1
Gentleman yields back. I'll now recognize Mister Bellisom from Missouri, and then Mister Timmons from South Carolina.
Speaker 42
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Waltz, we already know that the Minnesota medical assistance gives taxpayer dollars to people that are not here legally, illegal aliens. And we know that in large part, your sanctuary city policies or sanctuary state policies have exacerbated the fraud that we are seeing in Minnesota. We know that just from conservative estimates alone that during the Biden administration, we had an estimated 15,000,000 people come here illegally. Within your state alone, the estimates from the Migration Institute in Pew Research is that it's at least 130,000 people that are here illegally.
And we know that 250,000,000 was stolen for the Feeding Our Futures program. Are you familiar with the fact that those working for the program and individuals later convicted of fraudulent crimes met with mister Ellison in what has been talked about, the recorded conversation?
Speaker 42
It was a fifty-four minute conversation, and in it, the conversation was recorded as an audio file secured by a request to get that information. He can clearly be heard pledging his support to individuals who would soon become his family's campaign donors and later feeding our future criminal defendants. The ask occurs around minute 43:30. Specifically, the request for him is in the AG statutory role as the attorney for state agencies to intervene on behalf of these frauds. And at 4 84 26, Mister Allison assures the fraudsters, quote, unquote, of course, I'm here to help.
And at 04:45 minute mark, he says, quote, unquote, let's go fight these people. These people, meaning the agencies that were looking into the fraud. Have you listened to this audio?
Speaker 3
Today was the first time I've heard it. I'm familiar with it, and I don't know if I can validate that characterization.
Speaker 3
I'm not gonna speculate on a like, like I said, I cannot characterize what it was.
Speaker 42
Certainly, you've heard the allegations that Mister Ellison was working with individuals and avoid like, to try to that people were trying to reach out to him to try to avoid any kind of prosecution.
Speaker 3
Don't know if I would characterize it like that. I don't I couldn't do that.
Speaker 42
So it's reported that it's, at most, it's $80,000,000. And as we know, the amount that has been attributed to fraud in Minnesota alone is estimated, I think, on the low end. The conservative side is 9000000000. I think the Trump administration says 19,000,000,000.
Speaker 3
Congressman, I don't see anything to show that, but what I've acknowledged is $1 is too much. I think the local people and the folks who are taking count of this show it just at about 271,000,000.
Speaker 42
I think that, returning 80,000,000 out of a, let's say, assume it's just 9,000,000,000, which would be point or it would be zero or point 0.08%. Less than 1% of the money has been gotten.
Speaker 3
But congressman, no one's saying the 9,000,000,000 other than a potential for that. And that means every dollar that's out there. And I think that was characterized last week by the US attorney's offices saying that caused problems because there's no evidence to back that up. But I want to be clear. That doesn't make it any better.
I just want to be clear. I hear you.
Speaker 42
There's work. Would you agree there's more work to do? If you're at 1% or less, than one percent, there's more work to do.
Speaker 42
Last week, you stated to the press that you had fired people who weren't doing their jobs. Is that correct?
Speaker 3
What I stated was that people have been put into new positions. Okay. That we removed people from the positions.
Speaker 34
Thank you, mister chairman, and thank you for being here today. Governor Walsh, under your leadership, Minnesota has become the poster boy of fraud in America. Between the Feeding Our Future scheme and massive widespread fraud in autism and child care programs, your tenure will be defined by immense negligence, costing taxpayers at least hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars. In 2019, in the first months of your administration, your legislative auditor found serious weaknesses in the child care assistance program, including inadequate attendance verification, repeat bad actors cycling through the system, weak enforcement, and employees who feared retaliation for raising concerns. Those warnings were specific, they were actionable, and they were documented.
And you were already in office at this time. If, as you say, the buck stops with you, governor, it's unclear when the buck actually stopped. In your written testimony, you listed multiple actions you have taken to curb fraud, yet clearly they were insufficient. As Mena said, ended up with 14 Medicaid programs deemed high risk, representing over 18,000,000,000 in spending. The buck didn't stop when whistleblowers were silenced years ago.
It only stopped when you realized the fraudsters were drawing attention from people that you could not intimidate into silence. Fraud of this magnitude does not happen overnight. It builds slowly, and it's the result of institutional failures and poor leadership. So, governor, my question is simple. If the bucks stopped with you, as you said, who failed between 2019 and 2022?
And why were they not held accountable?
Speaker 34
This fraud has been growing until recently, and you have been the governor for many years.
Speaker 3
No. Well, thank you for the question, Congressman. And I would disagree with your characterization, obviously. And the legislative auditor, I don't know what the time period they investigate. Those usually come months after they did it.
We took office in January 2019 and immediately started acting on what the OLA, the Office of Legislative Auditor, independent branch, started asking us to do, where we started changing the program.
Speaker 34
That's not what the record reflects. The record reflects that there were all of these whistle blowers, and they were being intimidated because alleged racism was the motivation behind the degree of enforcement.
Speaker 3
Congressman, I've never got a chance to speak to these folks. What I will say is that and my time in congress proved that. I strongest whistleblower protections we can possibly have. We have plenty of opportunities.
Speaker 34
We're not talking to every other state. We're talking to Minnesota because.
Speaker 34
Three members of the Minnesota state house representatives who all served on the fraud prevention and state oversight, policy committee gave transcribed interviews that confirmed that your administration was aware of the fraud happening in the state yet chose not to act due to fear of political repercussions and intentionally silenced whistleblowers who have tried to come forward.
Speaker 34
I'm gonna answer this on the record. Road map to program integrity and fraud prevention. Is the report, Mr. Chairman? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This report relays that several current and former Department of Human Services employees have described messaging from DHS leadership that emphasized compassion over compliance.
So the former leaders have said that DHS should be guided by 70% compassion and 30% compliance. And then in 2023, DHS public presentation, leadership encouraged employees to embrace a 60 40 mindset. Again, that's 60% compassion and 40% compliance. I want to have as much compassion for people who need social safety nets. Like, I wanna have 100% compassion, but we also have to have 100% compliance.
Speaker 34
we can get there. And as you sit here today, and after acknowledging how widespread and pervasive fraud is in Minnesota, how should your state employees prioritize program compliance? What is your message to people now, relative to this compassion compliance ratio.
Speaker 3
Well, I think I agree with you on this, congressman. I don't think it's an either-or choice. We need to make sure we're not gonna stop these programs. We're not gonna stop being the top state for children in the country, but we need to make sure if we're gonna continue those programs, that we need to have fraud prevention and program integrity in. So I agree with you.
It's not an either or, and it's not a percentage.
Speaker 34
In order to give the benefits to the people that need them most, we have to be good stewards of tax dollars. And for every dollar that is stolen through waste, fraud, and abuse, that is a dollar that cannot.
Speaker 34
We need to prioritize compliance, make sure that we have the least amount of fraud possible. And, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Speaker 1
Agree, congressman. Gentlemen, yields back. Next is Mr. Maguire from Virginia, then Miss Luna.
Speaker 43
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon to our witnesses. Governor Waltz and Attorney General Ellison, what year were you made aware of rampant fraud in your state?
Speaker 43
The committee has spoken to nearly 30 whistleblowers, most of which are current employees in your administration. Based on these transcribed interviews, you were both made aware of the rampant fraud in your state around 2019, 2020.
Speaker 43
you something. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter into the record article from CARE 11 titled CARE 11 investigates evicted homeless paying the price for Minnesota's fraud crisis.
Speaker 43
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Wallace, Janelle Hansen, who goes by the name Sky, has autism. In June 2025, Sky, who was living in an apartment paid for by integrated community supports, was evicted by the police because her caregivers, American Home Healthcare LLC, who were subletting her apartment, stopped paying their rent. This provider claimed to provide this woman with twelve hours of daily individual services and billed ICS an average of nearly $12,000 a month when she only interacted with him two hours per day. Because of this fraud, the woman has been homeless for 8 months.
In fact, while Sky is homeless, the owner of American Home Healthcare LLC lives in a high-end Maple Grove home, which has an indoor basketball court. State Medicaid billing data shows since 2022, American Home Healthcare has been paid more than $2,200,000 in public funds. That is $2,200,000 that was taken fraudulently from the taxpayers to pay for a man to live in a lavish home, while people like Sky are left to live on the street. Governor Walts, this is despicable. You have a duty to serve the Minnesotans you failed, and you failed to protect these individuals like Sky who needed it most.
I've had constituents tell me that after seeing all the fraud that has come to light in your state, they aren't sure if they're paying taxes or if they are paying criminals. Governor Walts, Attorney General Ellison, yes or no? Does your administration take whistleblower reports seriously? Yes or no?
Speaker 43
Governor Walts and Attorney General Ellison, yes or no. Do you believe that when faced with a whistleblower, the correct course of action is to retaliate against them and suppress their concerns?
Speaker 43
Governor Waltz, yes or no? Are you aware of any instance of employees in Minnesota's Department of Human Services being threatened and intimidated with military surveillance to ensure they stay quiet about fraud?
Speaker 43
This is a picture of an email from Emmanuel Nuala at the DHS manager who has since been promoted to your lead to the leadership role. This email shows clear proof that the threatened employees with military surveillance, including, quote, I did intelligence research with the army and gave them IP addresses and email addresses to track specific locations. Governor Waltz, yes or no? Are you aware of this email?
Speaker 43
Governor Waltz, Mister Noah, stated in the email that he was asked by upper leadership to hold off, as they are doing their own thing on it. What did that mean? What do they mean by that?
Speaker 43
Was upper leadership doing their own military surveillance on whistleblowers to intimidate employees and to stay quiet about rampant fraud?
Speaker 43
Moving on, Governor Wallace. Yes or no? Do you agree that it would be intimidation to confront a whistleblower with photographs of their car, their house, and monitor their phone and computer, and ask which schools their children go to? Yes. Governor Wallace, yes or no?
Did the DHS investigators direct you to participate in these intimidation acts against whistleblowers?
Speaker 43
In her transcribed interview, Miss Gandhi confirmed that DHS used outside entities to investigate DHS staff. Governor Wallace, I think it's clear to the American people that your administration didn't take whistleblowers seriously, and even further cultivated an environment of fear to intimidate employees from going public with the truth about the rampant fraud in your state and under your failed leadership. Governor Wallace and Attorney General Ellison, your incompetence and inaction to stop pervasive fraud when you were first alerted was not only defrauding taxpayers of $9,000,000, but you have also failed to protect those who truly needed these services, such as Sky. Because of your failed leadership, that woman was evicted from her apartment and homeless on the street for 8 months. Leadership matters.
And governor, you abandoned your troops before deployment. You were right before they deployed. You told your law enforcement not to cooperate with federal agents, which led to a lot of the problems in your state that you don't see happening around the country. And you, abandoned Minnesota by allowing this fraud to continue. And so I understand you, I'm so glad that you have decided not.
Speaker 3
Congressman, did you do 24 years in the military? Because I did. Was that not long enough for you?
Speaker 44
I'm sorry. You're now interfering with my time. But as a veteran, he's a veteran too. I don't think that you need to compare the service. No one's discrediting your service, but I think they're discrediting your ability to.
Speaker 44
Thank you, governor. Chairman, I would ask you to go to is not for you. Please do not interfere with the witnesses' time. It's for your.
Speaker 44
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to be very clear about why we are here today, and why both of you should be concerned. I've already sent criminal referrals to Attorney General Pam Bondi recommending that both Governor Waltz and Attorney General Ellison be investigated and prosecuted under 18 US Code 371 and 18 US Code 2. The US Attorney Office estimates up to 9,000,000,000 in taxpayer money has been stolen on your watch, Governor Waltz.
Not a rounding error, not a typo. $9,000,000,000, and both of you knew. Mister Ellison, there's a widely reported recording of a meeting between you and feeding our future on 12/11/2021. At that meeting, those individuals that you were speaking to told you that the state investigators looking into fraud were acting in a, quote, racist manner. And your response was, and I'm quoting directly from the recording, let's just go fight these people.
I want to ask you, what do you mean by fight these people?
Speaker 4
Congresswoman, first of all, this matter I've responded in writing to this committee.
Speaker 4
I've written an op ed about this matter. I have gone through several committees, one in the state, one in the fed, one in the senate. Mhmm. Now, here today. And it's very clear that these people were liars. They were lying to me.
They lied to the judges. They lied to the state agencies. They were fraudsters. Everyone agrees that they are fraudsters. And.
Speaker 44
If I could just because I'm a limit on time, though. I want to see and I understand what you were stating. You're saying that you were essentially lied to. But in responding to them, and the reason I'm questioning this is because I had the privilege of questioning some of your state legislators that were Republicans, and they did feel that both you and the governor were covering up what was happening with the fraud. So I want to specifically just know who you are referencing when you said fight these people?
If you could, just keep it short. Congresswoman. Your own state?
Speaker 4
Congresswoman, these people represented themselves to be business people who were having difficulty with the bureaucracy.
Speaker 4
They contacted me, and they wanted to know what, you know, can you possibly help us? What I did is investigate their claims and then worked with the federal authorities to see 57 of them convicted of crimes and about, I think, more than 80 now indicted. So these people presented themselves as someone needing help and honest business people. They were not what they claimed to be.
Speaker 44
So just to be clear, it would be the bureaucracy, would you say, within your own state? Is that you were saying fight these people as in the bureaucracy within your own state. Correct?
Speaker 44
I okay. So I'm not gonna get anywhere on this question. That brings me to my next thing. Do you believe that it is racist to investigate someone for fraud because they're of Somalian descent? Yes or no?
Speaker 4
Ma'am, I believe that anybody who commits fraud of any background should be investigated and held accountable.
Speaker 44
Okay. Well, I would actually agree with you on that one, so thank you for clarifying. But to be clear, those individuals that you told the Department of Human and Human Services were basically it was racist than if you were looking into it for fraud. You took that meeting, you made that promise, and then it turns out that the billions of dollars in fraud continued. And I hate to bring this up because I am a parent, but your own son also received donations from those same individuals.
Imam Omar, the man that you invited, invited you and is listed as a partial owner of an entity that was used to launder over 40,000,000 in feeding our future funds. I would say that you did mislead the public. Whether or not you at the time realized what they were up to, the fact is that you were then presented with the evidence, and it does feel, and according to your own state legislators, that you did not take that seriously enough. In my opinion, if you.
Speaker 44
I'm telling you what my opinion is. I don't believe that was a question, but I do believe based on the recording, based on the fact that you were personally tied to it, based on the fact that your family then had ties to it as well, seems a little suss. Aside from that, though, you're telling the American people essentially that maybe you didn't know about it. When dozens of your own employees were afraid to be labeled as racist or Islamophobic if they stayed silent. And so I just wanna be clear about something.
You stated and you agree that anyone should be investigated based on, you know, regardless of their background. But the fact is that your own employees came forward and were actually afraid of actually looking into that fraud because they did not want to be labeled as Islamophobic or, as maybe xenophobic. So you dismiss this as President Trump said as politicizing the issue when $9,000,000,000 is not a political talking point. It's an embarrassment. The American people see what's going on, and this is fraud.
I would say, and I would also advise the attorney general to look into our criminal referrals. I do not believe that you guys could say that you didn't know what was happening because, frankly, even if, let's say, giving you the benefit of the doubt, you might not have known, you guys still chose to turn a blind eye to it. Thank you, chairman. I yield my time.
Speaker 1
Gentle lady yields back. And before I represent, before I recognize Mister Langworthy, our last questioner, I wanna say Congressman Jack is on the rules committee, and everyone knows that they put in long hours. He's actually managing the floor. If he doesn't make it back in time after Mister Langworthy, I wanna put into the record represent Jack, is leading debate on the floor, but we'll submit his questions for the record. So with that, I recognize Mr. Langworthy from New York.
Speaker 8
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Governor, you have served as governor of the state of Minnesota for nearly seven years. Why did it take you until 2023 to launch an investigation under the inspector general into this massive fraud that's been uncovered?
Speaker 3
I don't believe that timeline is correct, Congressman. As I said, we were making changes, and this has been worked. These cases have been brought forward years ago.
Speaker 8
But your administration did hesitate for years to fully investigate this fraud. Was it because you were concerned about the, you know, you're the de facto leader of the Democratic Party of Minnesota as a governor. Were you concerned about the political consequences within the Minnesota Democratic Party's voter coalition? Did that lead to you making that mistake? Because I am trying to listen to the answers today and come up with a conclusion as to why you would turn a blind eye to this for so long when so many people from your partners in government across the aisle, but also people at the street level, saw this fraud going on in plain sight?
Speaker 3
Well, we did not, and I know that the rest of the country saw this recently. And what I would ask you, congressman, is what benefit would there be to that? Just assume there's no ethics involved, which I have a long history here of doing that. There's certainly no benefit in taking money from programs that I've advocated for that make Minnesota the best state to live in. And so we worked it from the beginning.
And, look, these things these folks continue to move. They're moving targets. We went back to the legislature asking for more tools. We went back last year and asked for more tools. And now what's great is Republicans are actually supporting those things that we put forward.
So, as soon
Speaker 8
As governor, Republicans came to this committee last month and testified the fact that they've been trying to get people's attention and power in Minnesota for a long time.
Speaker 8
Well, it so you state that unequivocally, there was no political consideration based on constituents in the Democratic Party. Absolutely not. Blind eye.
Speaker 8
Now that's interesting that, governor, because your first reactions in December 2025 were to call taxpayers conspiracy theorists and dismiss concerns about the $9,000,000,000 in fraud as white supremacy. And, you know, on December 23, you stated this is what happens when they scapegoat, and this is what happens when you no longer hide the idea of white supremacy. You immediately went there. And.
Speaker 3
I believe I was speaking about the ICE invasion and metro surge. I'm unfamiliar with where you're quoting.
Speaker 8
This is when this fraud was uncovered. Knowing now that those people were correct, would you apologize to those constituents for classifying them?
Speaker 3
I'm unfamiliar with what you're asking for. I've heard today. Alright. Attacks on the Somali community that I would view as a racist trope throwing at the Somali community.
Speaker 8
Okay. Governor, I understand you need to deny and deflect in, you know, your stories are pretty legendary at this point. But while you were looking the other way at fraud that took place on your watch, you and your ticketmates in the Democratic Party in Minnesota get somewhere between 80-90% of the vote in Somali heavy precincts. In your election, reelection, the gentleman sitting next to you won his last election by a mere 21,000 votes. It seems to me, and in conventional wisdom here, would be that you were willfully ignorant to these crimes in return for community support.
Speaker 3
That's totally false, congressman. That accusation is totally false. I won by, I don't know, 10 points, hundreds of thousands of votes.
Speaker 3
That accusation, throwing that around, we came here to help and work with you to try and find solutions to fraud.
Speaker 8
We're talking about 9,000,000,000 in fraud. Your entire state budget's only 65,000,000,000. I mean, this is a
Speaker 8
I you've rattled off about 10 different numbers today. You clearly don't have a handle on the numbers either, and you need a serious accounting effort in the state of Minnesota right now.
Speaker 8
Do you believe that your inaction in the first term to prevent fraud in the childhood nutrition and child care assistance programs gave the green light to other scammers to commit housing and Medicaid fraud in your second term?
Speaker 8
And once again, your words say one thing. Your actions say something different. You came into office after several multimillion dollar fraud scandals on the heels of a 2018 report alleging that over $100,000,000 was being defrauded from taxpayers annually, and you did nothing. And in 2020.
Speaker 8
After hearing about potential fraud with Feeding Our Future, you did nothing.
Speaker 8
You knew and did nothing to stop autism payment fraud. Its annual expenses inexplicably increased from $6,000,000 to $192,000,000 in just 5 years. And you did nothing to stop housing stabilization, Medicaid fraud, which has topped $100,000,000,000, and you did nothing to stop daycare fraud, an issue that's already costing taxpayers millions when you were sworn into office. Are you familiar with article eight of the Minnesota constitution?
Speaker 3
I am not, Congressman. But I will give you this. Doing nothing, you're in the right job for that, in this congress. I disagree with that entire characterization. I know I'm unfamiliar.
Speaker 8
with like you've created a state of Minnesota that you're free to come and
Speaker 8
A real big bold one after what we've uncovered here today. Article a state officers, including the governor, may be impeached for malfeasance or nonfeasance in the performance of their official duties. Well, billions of dollars of taxpayer money were allowed to be lost to fraud. Whistleblowers were ignored. It's extremely well documented, and those people were punished.
And you had a direct political benefit from this fraud. That's an impeachable offense. Mister chairman, I yield back.
Speaker 1
Gentlemen, yields back, and I think you heard the bell. I know votes are being called. So the ranking member and I deferred any closing statements until we come back. I wanna thank our witnesses for being here. We appreciate your testimony.
Hopefully, you all will read the committee report and protect the whistle blowers. And, hopefully, we can hold some people accountable who have committed fraud. Pursue it to the previous order. The committee will recess for floor votes. We plan to reconvene right after the vote series.
The committee stands in recess. Thank you all.
Speaker 1
Yeah. The witnesses can be excused. Thank you all. Thank you. I know you have. Thank you, chairman.
Plain sketch. We really appreciate you all being there.
Speaker 1
I'm gonna call the committee back to order. I know there's some members that are still coming back from the floor, but we're gonna go ahead and go through the bills, and then we'll vote on them if there's any debate. First motion is a Cristo Morte motion, pertaining to the homeland security secretary. The motion is debatable. Do any members seek recognition on the Cristo Mort motion?
Anybody seek recognition? Chair recognizable Biggs. Is it this?
Speaker 9
So she's been testifying down and is contained on in judiciary, and it is, quite frankly, hard for me to imagine that there'd be anything new that my colleagues across the aisle would wanna ask her. So it just seems to me like this is would you would.
Speaker 1
Did anyone during your judiciary hearing today ask about Minnesota and all of that?
Speaker 9
Yes, mister chairman. She did. I thought and I thought she was also cooperative because a number of my colleagues across the aisle asked her for more information. She's gonna provide more information. And, it just seems to me, like, this is deleterious and duplicative, and it'll be a waste of time.
So with that, I'm I would oppose this subpoena. Okay. Yield back.
Speaker 17
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Look. I think that, in this committee, we've obviously touched on topics that are covered in other committees, including immigration, including other matters that have overlapping jurisdiction. But what has happened with ICE and CBP and DHS, not just with regard to excessive use of force and the Operation Midway Blitz or Metro Surge, but also the waste of money. And government resources merit its own kind of examination in this committee.
So that's why, of all the committees, I think this one has the broadest jurisdiction and the one that is most concerned about ruling out waste, fraud, and abuse, and we've seen that in the DHS.
Speaker 1
K. Alright. Gentleman yields back. Next, gonna recognize Miss Luna, and I think she may have an announcement.
Speaker 44
Oh, well, thank you, chairman. First of all, I think that we are the greatest committee in Congress. And so I think that we have purview over every single branch, division, etc. So I wanna talk to everyone, and I think that these are all valid concerns for members of Congress to wanna speak directly to the secretaries. But I did also do what some people don't do in Washington, and I picked up the phone and called homeland.
And Secretary Noam has agreed to have us, all the members, over to Homeland to answer any questions that we may have. So that option stands, and I will be taking full advantage of that, not next week as we're out of session, but as soon as we get back. And so with that being said, I think that pretty much says that there's no need for a subpoena. She'll come in. She'll answer questions and or have us over there.
And, you have stated that you'd coordinate.
Speaker 44
I think we can arrange something. Maybe Chick-fil-A if everyone's here.
Speaker 1
Any other membership recognition on the Christian Morté? Alright. We're gonna, all those in favor of the Christian Morte motion, signify by saying aye. Aye. All those opposed, signify by saying no.
No. And the opinion of the chair of the noes, have it. The motion is not agreed to.
Speaker 1
Okay. Recorded vote has been ordered. All votes will be rolled to the end of this debate, which hopefully will be pretty soon. Next motion is the motion by Miss Mace to referencing Pam Bondi, the attorney general. This motion is debatable.
Do any members seek recognition? I'll comment on it. Want recognition? I was, had a phone call with the chief of staff for the attorney general, and the attorney general has offered to give members briefings, a briefing, a few at a time to come into the department of justice and get a briefing on where they are with respect to Epstein documents and anything else pertaining to that. So, I'm certainly interested in getting a briefing from the Attorney General.
Speaker 44
I also think that maybe we have questions about Anthony Weiner, but that's separate.
Speaker 2
Thank you. I wanna support representative Mesa's motion for the attorney general. Look. The American public have significant questions about the DOJ and their process for releasing the files. I think the attorney general has gone to speak, obviously, to other committees.
I think it's important that she is in front of the our committee. She can directly answer questions about the release of the files, about transparency, about ensuring that victims and survivors are protected. And so we certainly support representative Mace's motion as it relates to bringing the attorney general here to have a hearing in this committee. And if there's other opportunities to speak with her, we would.
Speaker 1
Welcome those as well. Any other members seek recognition? Seeing none, all those in favor of the MACE motion, signify by saying aye.
Speaker 1
All those opposed, say no. No. In the opinion of the chair, the noes have it. The motion is not agreed to. Recorded vote has been ordered.
All votes will be rolled to the end of the debate. Okay? Now we the next motion, number three at four is Miss Mace, the Mace number two pertaining to her issue, and I'll yield to Miss Mace.
Speaker 25
This would be a subpoena for information on the sexual harassment hush fund. That's really I want those documents and information related to it and members that were included in.
Speaker 2
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have some comments on representative Macy's motion, and I'd want to offer just a slight amendment to it, which I think would help protect certain staff. And I just wanna kind of clarify first. I want to appreciate the actual effort. I think that, obviously, there shouldn't be violence to protect any member of Congress that's been engaged in any type of sexual harassment or abuse of anyone.
So I do appreciate that effort. Now we have heard some concerns from the office of general counsel that the breadth of this motion covering members, senators, staff, library of congress staff, GPO, GAO, Capitol Police, and other entities and employees covered within the actual motion makes it more likely that the office of congressional workplace rights could push back based on some confidential confidentiality language. It also, there's been concern from our members that it does not protect staff enough, that there could be a chilling effect on staff. I understand the intent of the motion. So, congresswoman, I just wanna add if you'd be willing to accept this amendment, we think this would clarify this.
Mister chairman, I moved the committee issue. I'm sorry. Let me look here.
Speaker 25
I'm gonna copy the language because my language redacts the names of victims and witnesses.
Speaker 2
There is still some concerns. Let me just show offer the amendment to see what if you're amenable to it. Mister Chairman, move the committee issue. I'm sorry. One second. Where did credit card holidays happen?
Right here. Here.
Speaker 2
So, Mace, at the end of the motion, we would add this language, and I'm happy to pass this out, which we're putting out right now. At the end of the motion, we would add, the awards and settlements will be limited to a payment made for an award or settlement in connection with the claim alleging a violation committed personally by an individual who, at the time of committing the violation, was a member of the House of Representatives, including a delegate or resident commissioner to Congress or a senator. Are we okay with that? I'm fine with the language. Okay.
That is something that we believe we could support. This amendment would limit this, of course, would limit this to members, senators, and we would, and that with that, I would recommend that we vote yes to support this amendment.
Speaker 1
Mister Garcia would like to amend the motion, basically to exclude staff.
Speaker 2
To so we can actually focus this on who I think the representative is trying to get to, which is, which is members.
Speaker 25
He's mister chairman, he's using language out of, basically, rule 23 of the house rules, so I'm fine with that. You limiting it to house members, senate, etc. I'm good with this. Okay.
Speaker 1
So the amendment has been offered. I guess the debate is now on the amendment to the motion. I saw Luna then Biggs. Luna?
Speaker 44
Alright. I support representative Mace's subpoena here as well as the amendment to it. I just think it's really disgusting how this institution protects itself because y'all just half of them voted to send this stuff to House Ethics, where you know it's gonna die. We know that members of Congress are using taxpayer dollars to pay off sexual harassment. We just had a member of Congress literally sexually harass a woman that then lit herself on fire, and you guys all protected him.
Speaker 44
You guys all protected him. My own side, your side. And so if you guys wanna talk about victims, if you wanna go out and virtue signal, and then you guys are gonna kill her stuff on the floor and then try to pass, yeah. Of course. We should subpoena all this stuff.
But I'm not gonna sit here and play games. I think it's a complete fraud. I think that's why the American people hate us. I think the midterms are coming up, and everyone should go on record for this. And I hope that members are exposed to this.
I hope it goes back, I think, into the 70s because it's wrong that it's happening. It's wrong that we cover up for it. It's wrong that we can't center our own side because people are busy making deals, because you guys don't want to center your side. It's a deal that's been cut. People hate us for it.
Speaker 9
Recognizes Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a question because I wanna make sure that I understand it. This on the second line of the motion where it talks about for the awards or settlements paid, that seems to me that it would exclude allegations which have been unproven or unsubstantiated or unresolved through an award or settlement. Is that right?
Speaker 25
If we're using the word, yes, the word allegation would include allegation. Yes. Not just things that have been completed. It's allegations.
Speaker 9
Yeah. It says awards or final settlement. So I just wanna make sure that that's the case.
Speaker 9
Okay. And I so I'm all in on the underlying. And I'm actually okay with the with
Speaker 9
I think it narrows it more than perhaps I would like it to see. But I'll yield it back to you, mister chairman.
Speaker 20
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanna recognize representative Mace's courage first in standing up for the disclosure of the Epstein files, so we don't protect pedophiles. And now she's saying the same thing. Let's not protect people who sexually harass in the United States Congress. And she's saying, let's have Pam Bondi tell us why half the files are still hidden.
I don't understand how anyone on this committee can't vote yes on both of those motions. It's about transparency. It has nothing to do with being a Democrat or Republican. It's about going after predators and people who are sexually harassing, and that's what the American people expect. And I appreciate Representative Mace, his commitment to that transparency.
Speaker 33
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I wanna thank congresswoman Nancy Mace for introducing this privileged motion. I think at this point, this is something that should be introduced on a weekly basis. I am absolutely disgusted that we couldn't even get to 50 members of Congress who want immediate transparency. Don't we all campaign on transparency?
Don't we all go out and tell the American voters that we are leaders and that we are going to get justice for them, that we are going to do right by them? And then we hire their daughters to come work for us. And, your tax dollars, millions and millions of dollars, have been used in this slush fund as hush money to silence victims who have been sexually harassed, sexually abused by members of Congress. And then Congress is going to do exactly what it does best, investigate itself. And we know that none of that ever goes anywhere.
The American people demand transparency, and this doesn't just pertain to a ranch in Arizona or New Mexico or an island down in the Virgin Islands. This is happening right here in our nation's capital, and we should be held to the highest standards. And to every member who voted to send this to committee, where you know this was sent to die on the house floor just moments ago, I hope you have a darn good reason to tell your constituents why you were not going to stand up for the victims. And I'm glad that we are doing something about it here in the oversight committee. I'm glad that this motion was made here, so we actually have another chance at transparency.
But, again, these are your tax dollars. These are your tax dollars that were used to silence victims. They have been settled with the victims. And to the members who voted against this, go home and tell your daughters what you did today. Go home and tell your daughters what happens in the workplace, no matter where it is, in your hometown, in your nation's capital, and tell them what you did to help continue to cover up decades of corruption.
I am absolutely in favor of this motion. Thank you, Congresswoman, for bringing this up. I yield.
Speaker 27
Thank you, chairman. This is really more a question on the I'm assuming an amendment to the motion.
Speaker 27
Alright. So I guess my question for Mister Garcia is why are we going to make a limitation on staff? If congressional dollars have been utilized for the purposes of essentially trying to cover up or cure harassment that's occurred, why are staff members being exempted from that level of transparency?
Speaker 2
No. I think that's a good question. So in our conversations with the officer general counsel, I think the one concern, and it's been brought up by some members as well, is that there are some staff in congressional offices and other places that have actually made settlements for a variety of different reasons. And the concern is that they, in a process of disclosure, could be unprotected from the settlement process that they agreed to. And the officer general counsel is unclear if they would be protected in those cases.
And so that is the concern. At the end of the day, I think the intent is this is for members of Congress and for senators. So that's what we're, that's the one thing that we're trying to clarify.
Speaker 27
Hold on. Hold and I appreciate that. But, I guess, what I'm trying to understand is if that's the standard for a staff member that there was a settlement based upon the reasonings that you said, but that same level isn't for the staff member, whether for the member, whether they're a current member or a previous member that has been in his body. I guess, I'm just trying to understand what the limiting principle is for what we're trying to accomplish. Because if the goal is transparency to make sure that harassment that has occurred on Capitol Hill is now transparent, but that's only for elected members, current and past, but doesn't deal with staff members, both current and past, then I fail to see how the level of transparency is being arrived at with the motion.
Speaker 2
Can I say one more thing? I think this is a good back and forth. I think the other issue is there's some concern that staff members that have on their own agreed to a settlement. And if there is additional disclosure in a settlement that they negotiated for a variety of different reasons, if they were the actual victim, that this would cause a chilling effect in small legislative offices.
Speaker 27
No. Understand that. But by that logic, that would occur throughout the entire capital complex. Because if you're gonna say that in a small legislative office, well, let's be clear, half of the House has small legislative offices. If that's the case, wouldn't that same logic proceed to the floor of the house and the floor of the senate?
And mind you, I'm in favor of the motion. I'm in favor of transparency. But I'm trying to ascertain, are we trying to create a limit to that transparency for the stuff that, to be blunt, is just a hot topic, or are we trying to have transparency?
Speaker 2
No. I can I say can I respond one more time? So I actually think this is an important piece of this debate. I'm gonna support the motion regard we wanna support the motion as Democrats. We believe that representative Mace is, we think, we know where she's trying to get out of here.
We want to support it. What we're trying to do is address a real concern of some of our members and the office and the offices that we're talking to about could this have a chilling effect on certain small offices that have gone into settlements. That's what we're trying to eliminate. I think the focus here is on members of Congress and senators. I think this amendment tries to address that.
Either way, we're gonna support the final motion. I certainly am. And so I just wanted to pass it along.
Speaker 1
Thank you, Donald. Would you yield for a few seconds? Yes, sir. I just wanna say I agree with you. I think if we're gonna do this, we don't exclude anyone.
We if we're gonna disclose the settlement, let's disclose every penny where it went, even if it went to staff. Because at some point, people are gonna say the amount of money that was paid out, and I have no idea how much was paid out. I don't know a single person that was paid other than maybe the former member from Texas a few years ago. But, they're gonna say a dollar amount, and everybody's gonna assume it was all the members. Well, it could have been 25% members, 75% staff, or it could be 100% members.
I say disclose the whole thing. So I oppose the Garcia amendment, but I yield back to you, Byron.
Speaker 27
I mean, chairman, I guess my question would be for the original sponsor of the motion. Miss Mace, is this? I guess I'm trying to understand where we're taking this. And is when it comes to the transparency aspects, I'm 100% for that. We should do that.
Speaker 27
But, Nancy, that's not I'm not saying I'm voting no. Like, I'm for it, but I'm trying to understand why it is okay to say just the members.
Speaker 25
Congresswoman Mace. I do have a title like everybody else in this room.
Speaker 25
I have earned a title, and I watched the majority of men in this body just vote down measures.
Speaker 27
that you're disclosed. Congresswoman Mace, I've never disrespected you at all. I'm not being disrespectful.
Speaker 27
No. I did not. You're taking it too far. I'm trying to get an understanding of what we're doing here. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 27
This is reclaiming my time now. Well, you're okay. The question is, why is there okay for a limitation just to members if these dollars have been paid on behalf of potentially staff both currently on Capitol Hill and previously employed on Capitol Hill? Look. I'm before seeking transparency,
Speaker 25
What's the limit? Favor of full disclosure. But if the other side of the aisle is concerned about legal limitations and disclosing it and not working, then I'm okay with focusing just on members of Congress of both bodies, the House and the Senate. If you would like to do your own amendment or do your own subpoena afterwards, then do that too. But this thing has to pass.
I mean, the American people, we expect the American people to be held accountable to a totally different standard. And now we're saying, oh, because we don't have staff included, we're just gonna vote this thing down. I'm talking about members of Congress, bodies in this House, bodies in the Senate. That's where the focus should be, because the taxpayers are paying our salaries. And, if this thing fails because of a technicality, then that is a failure of the American people, is where I'm going with it.
I want this thing to pass. I would like it to be unanimous. I would like both parties to vote for it, especially after the abject failure we just saw.
Speaker 27
The first 30 over, so I'm a reclaim. All I'm gonna say, if there's a technical concern, then what we're saying also is that the technical concern is not universal, that we're now picking and choosing the technical concern is. And if we're gonna now slay motions for this transparency, I would just say we should actually examine, according to what the chairman is saying, are we going to be consistent, or are we not? That's all I'm saying. I yield back.
Speaker 32
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have a brief comment, and I don't really have any skin in the game on this one. I voted no on the motion to refer earlier. But I would just say, there's a very clear difference between those of us who are members and our staff, which is that we are public figures. We run for office.
Our staff did not choose to be in the limelight. They did not choose to take on this burden. So when you look at what private companies do, what government officials and staff do in other situations, they're typically not disclosed in the way this bill would. I think we are unique in that we are running for office every 2 years. I think that we have additional responsibilities and a higher moral calling and a higher moral level we have to adhere to, because we are so powerful.
So I support the motion because I think there are legitimate legal issues with disclosing staff. At the same time, I support the base motion whether or not this amendment passed.
Speaker 1
Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes, I think, Doctor Fox and Clay Higgins.
Speaker 16
Mister chairman, yes. As someone else said, I don't really have a big dog in this fight or anything. But I have a, if Mister Garcia might, take a friendly amendment to his amendment. If there is concern about transparency related to nonmembers, could we ask in the amendment that we get a report on the amount of money that might have been given out in relationship to nonmembers. And then if there seems to be a real problem there, that could be then looked into by this committee.
Speaker 2
I don't have a problem, I don't have a problem with that at all. I think that's a fair request. I think that gives the committee an opportunity to take a look at that number and see if there's any other action that needs to be taken.
Speaker 1
So let me get this straight. You're gonna make an amendment to the amendment, and your amendment is that they have to, we have to disclose how much money was paid out to staff.
Speaker 1
amount. Good. If you would yield. I think that's good because I don't want a number to come out and everyone to assume 100% went to members. It could be a 100% members.
Well, could be.
Speaker 25
To Donald's point. I just my staff told me that a fair share of the settlement funds were for nonmembers.
Speaker 25
I don't know if it's 50%. I didn't have that information with Capitol Police settling sexual harassment claims, allegedly. I don't have a sheet in my office for Miss Fox after this that goes through. This only goes up, this is what I write right now. This only goes up to 2018 because this program ended after 2018.
So this is more historical, but my staff just told me a fair share of the settlement payouts. In some years, it was 4 or $5,000,000 for people who were not members of congress. So I just got that piece of it.
Speaker 16
Well, what I'd suggest, Miss Mace, Congresswoman Mace, is that in order to sort of deal with the transparency issue, I'd like transparency too, but that we go forward with the Garcia amendment. So we're focusing only on members, but we ask whoever it is, we're asking to provide the total amount of money that had been paid out for. I'm fine with that.
Speaker 25
And I actually have that list. I have that list by year, but I'm good with that amendment. If you wanna do an amendment to the amendment, I'm fine with that. And I have a spreadsheet. So.
Speaker 1
If anyone else wants to talk about the amendment, I will recognize them. It's gonna take staff a few minutes to draft this up. Mister Berlusconi.
Speaker 42
Getting a little bit confused, but I just want to make sure. And I don't know who would be able to answer this, but on the reason for the harassment or a staff on staff situation. I think that that's probably that I just wanna make sure that that is.
Speaker 2
I do. And that I think that is why we're making the amendment as well, is we wanna be very clear this is about members of congress and senators. And I think that, Miss Fox, representative Fox's amendment clarifies that we would get a report on all other settlements with numbers, so that we can then have information to make any additional motions.
Speaker 42
I do think that that's good because if you have a continuing problem in an office, even if the member is not the one, that's right. Doing it, but they're not having oversight of their staff in a proper way, then that's a problem. But I just wanna make sure it's transparent, whatever we're releasing, that it, you know, whoever the victimizer is, whether it's a member or their staff.
Speaker 1
So, do we have it typed up yet? I know we don't. Can we amend. Can we do that or not? Does anyone object if we go and discuss the bell motion?
Speaker 6
Are we exempting chiefs of staff and things like that? Some of these as an attorney that worked on these kinds of cases, sometimes it's management positions that are considered staff, but, you know, the member looks the other way, kinda thing. So I'm just cautiously saying that I think congresswoman Fox is right and looking him out. But, really, should it be based on an amount, or should it be based on whether or not this person had a supervisor position that is supervised by a member? Does that make sense?
So the member is fully responsible for their chief. Right? And I just feel like, you know, some of the horror stories I've heard is a member knows they kinda look the other way and allow the person managing their staff get away with it.
Speaker 6
That was sexually harassed at work, I had a supervisor who reported back to someone else. And I would probably, if I had known it, would get in information. I probably wouldn't have reported it. So I get what our ranking member is saying, because especially when you're younger. Okay?
We're at a time in our lives, for my fellow sisters, in service here. But for younger staff members, this is scary to think about, any of this information coming out because no matter what you all think, it will impact their future prospects. They don't, and especially if it's a small staff, they're gonna figure out who it is. It's gonna be just a ripple effect. So I just want, as we draft this, to be very cautious in making sure we're not protecting people.
The goal is to have people that are fully ones responsible in making sure and preventing this from happening, and that is the member, the senator and the house of representatives member. But we gotta make sure that, you know, in other situations where a lot of this stuff can be enabled by the member and not addressing these issues. And but at the same time, chairman Comer, I do worry about, you know, victims and folks coming forward.
Speaker 6
Not wanting to come forward because of what we're trying to do, and we're trying to do this because people are getting away with it. And Congresswoman Mesa is right. People are getting away with not being held accountable and paying off folks and looking the other way and, again, probably repeating their abuse afterwards.
Speaker 1
Alright. And since now that, miss Talib yields back, the amendment is topped up. Everyone should have the amendment, and I will read it. The Fox amendment, included, will also be an annualized list of the amounts of awards and settlements paid to or on behalf of nonmember staff. So that's the amendment to the amendment.
Does anyone else wanna debate the amendment? If not, Doctor Fox?
Speaker 16
Well, the only thing I'd like to say is I think Miss Talib is right about threats to younger women. And if a report comes back that has a lot of money attached to it, says there's a lot of money, then this committee can go ahead and do some investigation. That my point was, let's give an opportunity for the committee to do more if it needs to, but I think Mister Garcia's amendment's a good amendment to narrow it now so we can move on. I think it's the best of both worlds.
Speaker 1
Okay. I hope. So seeing no more, we're gonna vote, Mister chairman. On the
Speaker 25
Mister Comer, can I just say a thing about the whole, are we voting on the whole thing right now?
Speaker 1
No. No. No. We're voting on the amendment to the amendment. That'll be the process.
Were you seeking recognition, Clay?
Speaker 12
I'd just like to remind the committee and those present that we are once again presenting to the American people that this is the way the oversight committee pursues a subpoena. And this is not the way the oversight committee pursues a subpoena. We are the majority, and we generally will work with the minority party for an appropriate subpoena to be presented by this committee. And this like, every time we have a hearing now, an opportunity to be recognized, there's gonna be some sort of grand standard subpoena, whether by the majority or the minority. I think it's beneath the dignity and the procedures of this subpoena process that is long standing established by this committee and the hard work that the committee staff does to accommodate the desires of a member on either side of the aisle to pursue a particular subpoena.
Speaker 12
This is not the way we normally do it, although this is becoming the norm. And let me say that this amendment as it's being pieced together is, poorly assembled. And nobody really knows what this thing is, what the impact will be. The good lady stated that there could be absolutely some impact on staff, and people will figure out who's who, because of small staffs and when the incident took place. And finally, let me say that the original motion to subpoena references a date of 12/12/2018.
Let me clarify. I had to ask, what was the significance of that date? Because that's when a law was passed that changed the process to what we have right now. But Americans watching this are saying, oh, you mean there's no process in place on how to appropriately handle a complaint like this? And there is.
It's an administrative process that goes through general counsel set up by the house since 2018 that handles this as very America, the members basically not involved. Now I've never been sued like this. I've been sued one time or through the administrative process here in congresses because I escorted the little fella away from a press conference one time. It wasn't a complaint from a staff member. So I don't have intimate knowledge of the way this mechanism works, but I do know that members have very little to do with it.
It's handled by the general counsel. And then it will go to a district court, maybe if it passes through the preliminary review, that's what it's called right now, by general counsel of the house, then it can get to a district court where a member may have his day in court.
Speaker 12
To defend himself or whatever. So I'm opposed to this process, mister chairman, of just thrusting subpoena in front upon the committee for debate like this. That doesn't have to happen, and I think that I understand that people have different motives going on with why they support this, and I don't know how I'm gonna vote. But this thing is, like, woven together from three different pieces right now. You have the original motion, which nobody really understands the impact of.
You have an amendment to the motion, then there's an amendment to the amendment of the motion. We're not sure what we're voting on right now, but we know we're all supposed to vote yes because it's been thrust upon us like this. I yield.
Speaker 1
I would love to vote, but we have more members seeking recognition. Does any other member seek recognition? Mister Turner and then mister Dunn. Okay. I
Speaker 45
Affiliate myself with Mr. Higgins' statement. The I was resisting saying anything about this whatsoever, but this is a circus. This process degrades valid legislative processes. It reduces what is supposed to be substantive legal processes that were debated and adopted by Congress without any reference to any historical substantive legislative processes that have happened before Congress. And this is not how subpoenas or legislation is supposed to be amended or addressed.
Now, regardless of whether any of these issues in the end are valid or substantively important. This is not how they're to be handled in addressing them. This becomes a circus. If this committee is going to take up amending this legislation or addressing this issue, we should be having a hearing on them. We should open it up.
We should not be doing it in this manner. But we're at this point now, Mr. Chairman, and we're well down the road. But this has become a circus, and it is unfortunate.
Speaker 34
Miss chairman, this is gonna revictimize victims. It's not possible to redact the information to a point that would preclude anybody that has half a brain about how this place works from figuring out who the person was that got the settlement, whether it was the member or the chief or some other staff are within. I don't know what the answer is to this. I'm all for transparency, but, I mean, if somebody is living their lives, this goes back eight years. So you got somebody that something happened ten years ago, now they're gonna have to start answering questions where they probably want their life to just go on as it is.
I mean, we didn't take the necessary steps, and a number of victims were revictimized because of how we went about with the Epstein files. So I think maybe we should learn from that and just get this right. I don't know what the answer is. I'm all for whatever transparency. If there's a victim out there that would love to make a big deal about this 10 years later and hold somebody accountable further, great.
Knock it out. But I think for every one of those people, there's gonna be another person that would prefer to never think about whatever happened again, and enjoy the money they got. So I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think voting on, I mean, this is gonna create more problems, and this is, I will definitely affiliate myself with mister Higgins' remarks. This is not how this is supposed to happen.
Speaker 27
I actually have a clarifying question on the Fox amendment. Because as I read that to amend the Garcia amendment, in my reading, and I'm not a lawyer, but I'm trying to understand this on the fly, it actually invalidates both amendments, and we're back to the original motion. Because if we're not gonna produce an annualized list of the awards paid to or on behalf of nonmember staff, which nonmember staff, I'm assuming, would be any other employee in the Capital Complex not in a member office. That's what that says to me in late terms. I think what we're actually doing is we're getting back to the original motion of Miss Mace.
I'm just trying to get clarity on that, mister chairman, before we vote this thing out.
Speaker 1
I can't clarify. I agree with some of the earlier statements. This is not how we're supposed to operate. But, it's chair still barren time. Are you still talking or are you?
Speaker 44
If I could just say, I think they're gonna print it out and vote your conscience, but I say don't support sexual freaks or deviants, and support the amendment, and let's get it passed. Thank you. I
Speaker 27
On. Here's what we're gonna do now. I think it's important to understand exactly what we're releasing. Like, I was fine with the original Mesa motion. And then we were told no.
We can't do that because there's a chilling effect. But the Fox amendment now kind of undoes some of the chilling effect, the language that the Garcia amendment has. So I don't think it's just as simple as saying, well, just vote it out and be done. I think if we're gonna do this, members have to think very clearly about what we're actually letting through. I'm fine with the original motion as it is.
That's my position.
Speaker 27
Just think that both motions really countermand each other to a degree.
Speaker 9
Yeah. I'm just thinking trying to see if I could help clarify that if you deleted the term nonmembers and you just put behalf of staff of members of the senator, house of rep representatives, you know, you're talking about the staff of members. Would that assuage your concern? I mean, I get what you're saying, and it does this does kinda get messy, I think. But I do think, you know, I do think the lawyer in me is saying, well, maybe we should get some precision in speaking, and this might be a little bit more precise than the generic Fox amendment.
So, anyway, just yield back to you.
Speaker 1
Miss Mace, would you add doctor Fox? Do you have anything to add, doctor Fox?
Speaker 16
Well, I would just say, I think mister Garcia's amendment's pretty clear. It is going after information about a settlement made on behalf of a member of congress, whether it is to a staff person of a member of congress or anybody else. I don't think you have to say that it's a staff person here. It just says alleging a violation committed by an individual who was a member of congress or a delegate or whatever. And then all I'm doing to assuage the concern about whether or not it casts too wide a net in terms of people other than members is to say, okay.
We'll get a list of amounts of money paid out to other people, not staff members, and then see if it's warranted to proceed. I'm just trying to move us off the dime we're on right now, and then see what else needs to be done. Nothing precludes further investigation.
Speaker 35
Yes, sir. Thank you. Mister chairman, probably only this top row here back was there some ten years ago when this was a big issue. Oh, Andy was here.
Speaker 35
Okay. Well, it was a very difficult issue. It was in the papers. It was cost members their jobs. Some of it was true, some was untrue.
It really didn't matter if you were guilty if your name even appeared anywhere near it. There were some good people who got hurt in that. They took their lumps, and they moved on. But there was an agreement that if you could, and this was by men, women, both sides, that if you could engage in this without public scrutiny. I think it the fear at the time was it would hurt someone that claimed this, and you wanted to protect them also.
And I just think that we should get into a circumstance perhaps like chairwoman Fox has said, let's go in and take a look at this to where we know what we're talking about before we do it. But I don't think in any way that I would be for protecting someone if they shouldn't be protected, but there were things that happened that we learned about at the time, that were unintended. And even the person who was harmed said, well, he may not admit it, and maybe he didn't, but I took it that way. And so I'm just simply saying, I just think we ought to have a better idea about what we're talking about here before we go in and assume that there was a right and wrong. Unless they, because it was meant to protect people at the time.
It was not a compromise, that was it, it was by agreement. At the time we did this, there was agreement to it. So I think I would yield.
Speaker 34
I just wanna point out that congresswoman Mace thought that it was appropriate to say, with only redactions allowable for the personally identifiable information of victims, alleged victims, and witnesses. That is an illusory caveat because any settlement that was made, you're gonna have the quarterly disclosure of the office. You're gonna see who was there for 1 quarter, then who wasn't there the next. So this is an illusory redaction, protection of victims and alleged victims. And I just think that we need to be aware of that.
If we're gonna do this, I mean, this is going to revictimize victims, and that sentence shouldn't be in there because it's pointless, and it doesn't actually do what she's trying to accomplish.
Speaker 35
And I think that's correct. And with great respect to Nancy, she just learned some things today about the motion, the issue, the ideas that she's pushing, and I think it ought to be thought about a little bit. And I think that we should revisit it, but with some facts and factors that are known and understood. I watched good people on both sides that got caught up in this. And it is we tried to work out of it by agreement, not because we compromised.
I yield back.
Speaker 1
I yield back. Any other members seek recognition on this, or we're gonna vote? Miss Mays, you wanna speak on the amendment to the amendment or you wait. We're gonna vote on the amendment to the amendment. It's okay.
Is it, are you good with that? I want you to be happy. Alright. All those in favor of Doctor Fox's amendment to the amendment signify by saying aye.
Speaker 1
All those opposed, no. In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it, and the motion or the amendment to the amendment is agreed to. Now we will vote on the amendment as amended, the Garcia amendment as amended by Dr. Fox. All those in favor of the Garcia amendment as amended by Doctor Fox's amendment, signify by saying aye.
Speaker 1
All those opposed, no. No. Independent chair, the ayes have it, and the amendment as amended is agreed to. So now we are back to voting on the Mace number two amendment as amended. All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Speaker 1
All those opposed, say no. In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it. The motion is agreed.
Speaker 1
The last vote is the bell motion. Mister Bell, you want to explain your motion? I don't even remember what it was.
Speaker 28
Yes, mister chair. My amendment was to bring in Greg Gregory Bovino to this body. We think it's about accountability. It's about exactly what this committee should
Speaker 28
doing. There are operations in Minnesota that many of all of us should have questions about. And I think this is a no-brainer. This is exactly what we should be doing as oversight, getting those questions answered.
Speaker 1
Anyone else think miss space? They passed. Okay. Any other anybody else in recognition of the bell motion? Seeing none, all those in favor of the bell motion, signify by saying aye.
Aye. All those opposed, say no. No. And the peanut chair of the nose have it.
Speaker 1
has been requested. All votes will be rolled to the end of the debate. Now it's the end of the debate. We could vote on the bills. Right?
Vote the motions. Okay. So the question is on motion number one, the Cristo Morte motion. Members will record their votes using the electronic voting system. Clerk will now open the vote on the Cristo Morté motion.
Have all members voted? Who wished to vote? Does any member wish to change their vote? Seeing none, the clerk will close the vote and report the vote total.
Speaker 1
The nays have it, and the motion is not agreed to. Okay. The question is now on motion number 2 from representative Mace. This deals with Attorney General Bondi. Members will record their votes using the electronic voting system.
The clerk will now open the board. Have all members. And remember, the attorney general has offered to come in and give briefings.
Speaker 2
It's not there, there's no commitment for her to come in as far as I understand it. To come in?
Speaker 40
Are we not closing the vote because you don't want the attorney general to come in front of the oversight committee?
Speaker 1
Have all members voted and wished to be recorded? Does any member wish to change their vote? The clerk will close the vote, report the vote total.
Speaker 1
The ayes have it, and the motion is agreed to. The next question is now on motion number four from mister Bell. Members will record your vote using an electronic voting system. The clerk will now open the vote on the Bell motion. Thanks for have all members been recorded, or wish to be recorded?
Does any member wish to change their vote? Seeing none, the clerk will now close the vote, report the vote total.
Speaker 1
The nays have it, and the motion is not agreed to. In closing, I wanna thank our witnesses once again for their testimony today. Also, the next item of community business is ratifying the, oh, that's it. I actually asked consent that the committee approved what they would ratify in the subcommittee? The next item of committee business is ratifying the new subcommittee roster.
The clerks have distributed the roster electronically. I actually ask consent that the committee approve the appointments and assignments as shown on the roster. Without objection, the subcommittee roster is approved. With that, and without objection, all members have five legislative days within which to submit materials and additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses. If there's no further business, without objection, the committee stands adjourned.
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