Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs Ordinary meeting
Legend
Transcript markers
- text Sentence being played
- text Search result
- text Intervention cited by the link you opened
Click a sentence to play the video from that moment. Select text to quote it with the speaker, timestamp and link.
More options
LIBE European Parliament
Follow its sittingsMagnus Brunner
I think a good visa policy is the first step to better legal migration because the best global talent, of course, will tend to go where the visa process is simpler, more predictable, and easier altogether. And we accompany the strategy with a recommendation on attracting talent for innovation as well. Because we, as you know, hear it over and over again from the industry, from the businesses: to win the race against China, against the U.S. So, we need, of course, the best people also to choose Europe. We also want to give more support to member states in the implementation of visa policy.
And as one example there, as part of the strategy, they are aiming to set up a visa support office within Frontex. This could, I think, also help member states, for example, with the identification of fraudulent documents altogether. So that would also be part of the strategy. So, to sum it up, our visa policy, I think, is a powerful tool and has to be a powerful leverage. And I think now is the time for us to make sure that the tool is being used to serve our interests, to serve our European interests when it comes to security, diplomacy, and competitiveness.
And all these topics are being met. Good morning in the visa strategy. Thank you very much.
Javier Zarzalejos
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner, for your presentation. So, there are going to be quite a few interesting points raised by groups. So we start the round with a two-minute answer and a two-minute reply with EPP, Mrs. Disponible.
The floor is yours.
Lena Düpont
Thanks, Chair, and thanks, Commissioner. Good morning to everyone. Thanks for being here in the parliament and also for transmitting and explaining the messages behind the WIDA strategy. Because, like you just said, I think it cannot be appreciated too much that this is indeed the first ever visa strategy that the European Union has put forward. Like you just said, if we had it earlier, it would have been better.
But it's good that we have it now because it really sits at the crossroads of different silos. You can see I can say, within home affairs, within neighborhood policies, economic development, but also support for third-country cooperation. And I think that there actually is a huge leverage that the European Union could use and should use better than we have been doing so far. So, of course, the first question that comes to my mind regarding that is: how do we coordinate the silos? So, if we are breaking up silos, of course, we need to increase coordination. How do we make sure that this is indeed a one-size-fits-all approach, so to say?
Second question: I think it's really good that we are ambitious, but also keeping in mind that Member States are probably the ones who need to be convinced at a certain point. Maybe you can say a word on their perception.
Far.
Lena Düpont
And as you also mentioned, hybrid threats, I think it's also very much appreciated that we take that into consideration so that security has a strong impetus on visa policies as well. But also knowing that there are some discussions between member states, specifically when you look at putting countries on the list that are not allowed to enter the European Union for various reasons. Look at the Estonian proposal for Russian soldiers, for example. And the last point, I think that really shows the variety of tools and policy fields we have at hand. You also rightly touched upon the question of competitiveness.
How can we make sure that specifically small and medium-sized enterprises are benefiting from that visa strategy as such? Thanks.
Magnus Brunner
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Of course, overcoming the silos is extremely important. And we have in the strategy also envisaged a close engagement, of course, with the member states.
That's one part, but also within the commission, within the well, there are no silos, of course, in the commission, but sometimes, of course, it needs to cooperate a bit more and better. But that worked quite well, or rather very well, I would say, in the last weeks during the stage of preparing the strategy. The member states, coming to your second question, are very supportive so far. But of course, I'm aware that when it comes to the details, in the end, there will be some challenges, like always and everywhere. But so far, and then on a general approach, they are very supportive on that.
So, that's on the perception. When it comes to competitiveness in small and medium-sized enterprises, you mentioned that this is also something we had a very close look at in the preparation of the presentation. We had a lot of discussions and meetings with the business community and the industry to hear their views and their approach. And that's why we realized that we have to do something on the competitiveness side as well. And that's why we want to approach both sides. Of course, on the one hand, being stricter towards those third countries which do not cooperate.
And on the other hand, of course, having advantages and more flexibility for the businesses.
Matjaž Nemec
Thank you. Thank you, Chair of the Commission. Welcome. I also joined my colleague, Lena Dupont, in welcoming the new Eurovisa strategy, as it identifies some of the key policy challenges and the way forward in the ever-changing environment.
Changing.
Matjaž Nemec
Geopolitical situation in the world. I'm convinced that you must be able to respond to the global events affecting Europe, including our visa policy. Our EU visa policy must become more political and not only focused on immigration or security, for example. However, it is somehow disappointing for me that the visa strategy fails to offer more concrete answers about individual third countries. But allow me to ask you: the commission decided to adopt its latest report on the mechanism just eleven days before that.
That seems to be done on purpose so that the commission avoided taking any position on the visa exemption for third countries in line with the new mechanism. My first question is: why did the commission not wait and adopt the report together with the EU strategy and the new mechanism criteria? I also have another very concrete question. Gross violation of human rights and international law can now be a ground for triggering the visa suspension mechanism. This is one of the reasons that was worth fighting for.
And considering that one country, specifically Israel, is continuing its military operation in Gaza and the West Bank, has taken steps to further annex the illegally occupied Palestinian land, has expanded the illegal settlements, has demolished the UNRWA headquarters, and is limiting the operation of NGOs. Clearly, the conditions under the regulation for triggering the mechanism are met, aren't they? When will the Commission trigger the mechanism for that country, in particular, Israel? I don't want to go into a political field.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Nimert. Allowed.
Matjaž Nemec
Me to ask. And when is the commission going to start applying its own laws?
Magnus Brunner
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Starting with what you said in the beginning, it has to be more political. Yes.
You're perfectly right. That's why we're doing this exercise with the new strategy, because we want to have a more holistic approach towards this topic. And you're perfectly right, and I agree with you. When it comes to linking the visa suspension mechanism and the strategy, not everything that looks like a strategy is a strategy. And combining these things, or not combining them, wasn't a strategy.
That is something completely different because the visa suspension mechanism report is something we have to do annually. That's a normal sort of procedure, normally in December already. This is a regular exercise, actually, which comes up, as you know, every year. So there's no link there. It's always nice to see Mrs.
Sipple sort of shook her head. That's quite funny every time I'm here. Okay. Israel and the question. The visa-free access is based on numerous different criteria, as you know.
And that's exactly why we want to have a more general approach to visas, not picking out one single country. At the moment, we don't see migratory or security risks coming from Israel. In terms of overall relations with Israel and also the council's positioning, this is not something, I would say, we would accelerate. And we want to look at, as I said in the beginning, all visa-free partners and not single out one for any reason, for political reasons or whatever. So this is about the strategy, and that's why it's called an overall strategy.
Fabrice Leggeri
Thank you, Chair. I will speak in French.
Thank you very much, Commissioner, for setting out our visa strategy. My questions will focus primarily on your various competencies, your portfolio, if you like. I don't want to enter into an electoralist approach, as the socialists have been doing. My first question pertains to the link which you've established between the returns regulation and the use of visa strategy. Could you explain to us in a bit more detail how you might imagine using the visa strategy to exert pressure on third countries that refuse to issue visas to their nationals when EU member states want to expel those individuals?
So, both in practical terms and in legislative terms, how do you intend to proceed? My second point pertains to what you said regarding economic attractiveness. Increasingly, it appears that the difference we used to make between short-term Schengen visas, which are issued at the European level, and immigration visas is diminishing. So, it would appear that this differentiation is gradually disappearing. So, this new strategy that you've just presented—is that an indication that we're moving towards a new common strategy in legal terms when it comes to European visa policy?
And if you could first focus on the legal aspect, that would interest me. My third point concerns the use of technology, modernization, and interoperability. So, in talking about the visa strategy, you referred to digitalization, but I think that comes under the heading of technical modernization. Do you plan to roll out innovations to facilitate the work of our border forces and the police so as to reinforce our member states' security policy in terms of visa policy? Brunet.
Magnus Brunner
Thank you. Thank you very much. To answer your first question, yes, I mean, using Visa as better leverage, that's what I said in the beginning; it is really important. Also, when it comes to migration, putting migration on the table, when we talk about different agreements, when we discuss agreements with third countries and their trade, of course, visa policy is very important. Just to give you an example: Ethiopia.
Ethiopia didn't cooperate for some years, and then the European Union took some visa measures. They didn't answer any of our calls. And suddenly, when we imposed sanctions, visa sanctions, it suddenly worked. So we see the complete impact, of course, visa policy has on our cooperation with the countries, and that's why we want to use it in a smarter, more comprehensive way. Aligning, and that's also, of course, part of the strategy.
Aligning visa policy from the members of the member states and the European Union is, of course, something which we have in the strategy as well. But as you said, of course, it's partly the member states' competence. It's a shared competence, as you rightly said. But aligning the different visa policies of the member states, of course, is also within the strategy. The digitalization part, or coming back to the first part with the leverage.
The especially the '25a and the revision of the '25a, so the revision of the whole visa code is all about stronger cooperation, also on readmission there as well. What we will not touch is the long-term visa, kind of back to the second question. The long-term visa is not being addressed in the strategy. For the border guard digitalization part, yes, that's also a very important part of the strategy that we want to digitalize the whole visa procedure until 2028, hopefully. We are also in contact with some partners who have already started the whole process of digitalization.
South Africa, for instance, is doing a good job there, investing a lot of money and brainpower also in that. So cooperation is also key, but digitalization, I think, will make it, of course, easier on the one hand for the border procedures, but also for the competitiveness of the businesses and the industry on the other hand. So, digitalization, I think, is also very important there and is key in the strategy.
Maciej Wąsik
Thank you very much. I will speak Polish.
Commissioner, I welcome the fact that this strategy contains really important elements. So, visa policy is supposed to support our security policy and also support us in our fight against irregular migration. These are the basic points that have actually surprised me quite positively. So, you can count on our support on those two points unless the following documents do not go in the same direction. I am also surprised by the scale of irregular migration after we started the visa suspension mechanism.
I have read that one-fourth of asylum applications in 2024 were for those who are traveling after the visa suspension mechanism was introduced. This is a lot. This is really a lot. So I do agree with you that you have to verify and review those instruments that we can use against those countries from which the nationals abuse this system. This is super important for us, and I would like you to go even further.
Now, cooperation on returns and visa policy. Yes. This is super important. Your example about Ethiopia was really clear, but I have to remind you that Poland, many years ago in 2015, wanted similar solutions when we had the major immigration crisis. And I also welcome the fact that they need to change course towards those states that are aggressive towards the EU and are waging hybrid war.
Yes. We do need those types of actions. We do need some kind of sanctions targeted at those states. They have to feel it is not worthwhile waging this war. One more question.
One more question. Commissioner, do you think we should introduce a system of visa deposits for some nationals from some countries? Thank you.
Again?
Magnus Brunner
Difficult question. Yeah. That was a specific, interesting question, but that's not something we have in the strategy now, to be clear on your question. Maybe just two sentences on the abuse of free travel. That's where you are right, of course.
And I'm surprised that you are surprised because you said you were positively surprised. Yeah. Good. Good that you are positively surprised. But when it comes to the abuse of visa-free travel, this is really an important topic.
And we will assess this topic this year. This will also be part of the next visa suspension mechanism report, which is, I think, important. The strategy actually announced that we will monitor more strongly if visa-free countries continue to fulfill the criteria of visa exemption.
Raquel García Hermida-Van Der Walle
Thank you so much, Chair, and thank you, Commissioner. And I apologize for my late arrival, but I was receiving some Ukrainian heroes today. So I thought I had to be there for a little bit to renew. I have been informed that you mentioned that you're studying the possibility of using Frontex as part of visa enforcement mechanisms. I was wondering if you could give a bit more detail on how that would work, and if you have a timeline.
And also, if this has already been discussed initially, but if you already have from Frontex a sense of what the agency would need with regards to resources, particularly to make this possible. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Magnus Brunner
Yes. Thank you very much. Well, it's a strategy. And as you also know, we will have a revision of the Frontex mandate this year. We have to, of course, include it there as well.
But what we could think of is that Frontex helps us identify fake and fraudulent documents. That is something where Frontex could play an important role.
Javier Zarzalejos
Thank you, Commissioner. Now, for the group of the Greens, Miss Strick.
Tineke Strik
Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Commissioner, for being here and for presenting the strategy. And indeed, I also concur with those who gave you compliments for that because we need a strategy. As you say, visa is a tool that can be used, and it should be part of the pencil of many different policy areas that we have. And I think it can only work if all of these different objectives are taken into account.
If not, I think member states will simply go their own way because they have an interest in fostering their relationship with individual countries. And I think this is one of the challenging elements of visa policy that, to a large extent, is still the competence of the member states. And the commission, the EU tries to harmonize it and really make it an effective tool. But because the member states really have an interest in a good partnership, I think that the commission is still too focused on using Visa in a punitive way, as a punitive approach. And that would disregard, in my view, the foreign policy objectives and the goal of intensifying cooperation with third countries.
One thing on suspension, which I think the emphasis is too much on, but as a follow-up also to the question of Mr. Nemec, we use the suspension of visa facilitation, of course, already as a sanction in our foreign policy. If you look at Belarus and Russia, there are other examples of that. So, if you say in your answer to Mr. Nemec said about Israel, there's no migratory risk; then you, again, only link it to the migration issue.
And this is what I really do not completely grasp. Is that always an additional ground? I think that the suspension on the grounds of human rights violations or other bad behavior to suspend diplomats and high officials is not a self-standing ground. So, maybe you can explain a bit about that. And what is your strategy?
Is there a plan in order to work this further out? Then, if you link it to migration and security, do you also promote the issue of visa issuance in a more positive way? For instance, if we want to get a better return cooperation, we need to make sure that member states are ready to also have a strengthened visa policy.
Thank you, Mr. Strick.
One last question.
Tineke Strik
You say the issue should be promoted: the issuance for human rights defenders and vulnerable persons should be supported. What is your plan on that? Because I only read about updating the visa handbook. Are there other ways to make sure that it will become effective?
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Magnus Brunner
Yeah. Thank you. And I have to apologize because you are right. It has to, of course, approach both sides. Maybe in my intervention at the beginning, I was focusing too much on some answers just on the illegal migration part, which is also important.
But there's another side, of course, as well. There's the legal side, the competitiveness side, and the talent attraction side. So, yes, there are different sides of the coin. You're right, and we should focus on all of them, of course. But, yeah, in the discussion we have, of course, illegal migration plays an important role.
That might be why I was focusing on that. But you're right. We have to focus on all different parts there. When it comes to the member states, it's going to be challenging, yes, of course, because, as you said, it's a shared competence between the European Union and the member states. And that's why we had this very close engagement with the member states in preparing the strategy.
But of course, when it comes to the details, in the end, it will be challenging as well. What we have on the positive side, to focus on that a little bit, as I mentioned, for instance, is what we suggest. We will have visas longer than five years, for instance. That's one point. Also, when it comes to the lists of verified companies to help with business travel, for instance, that's a second positive aspect.
Yes. So yes, focusing on all of them and having a sort of more general approach is really important. Human rights defenders, you mentioned that as well, and the facilitation for human rights defenders. That's always an individual assessment, of course, and it will stay like that. That's a case-by-case approach, and I think we should stick to that.
And the law actually already allows for visa facilitations for human rights defenders and other people working in that field. So we should definitely stick to that.
Javier Zarzalejos
Thank you, Commissioner. Now, we start the second round of interventions. Please keep them within one minute. We start with Missus Anna Miguel Pedro.
Ana Miguel Pedro
Thank you, dear Chair. I'll use Portuguese. Commissioner,
I'm sure you will agree that the visa system is not just an administrative system. It's the first line of defense of the Schengen area and an essential part of our internal security. Recently, there was an operation that led to 52 entries being rejected, and 9 documentary frauds were identified at Porto and Lisbon airports. This shows that cooperation can help to identify fraudulent practices. So, we have to focus on measures such as restrictions on multiple-entry visas and avoiding red tape for consular services without affecting criminal networks.
What response can the commission give with its new visa strategy? How are you going to improve the detection of documentary fraud, smuggling, and trafficking? How are you going to act with the resources you have?
Yeah.
Magnus Brunner
Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, they're different topics you raised. For example, this support to the member states could be done, as I said before, by Frontex. It is one of the possibilities.
The Frontex BioFrontex Support Office. And you were mentioning the fraud documents. That is one of the experiences we also had with our entry and exit system. The entry-exit system is one of the results, which I think is great because, altogether, in the first 100 days, 25,000,000 people were registered, and interestingly, 18,000 people were refused entry due to fraud, fraudulent documents, or false documents. There were human traffickers, of course, who were not allowed to enter the European Union—criminals, 18,000 people altogether.
So, we see that this digitalization you mentioned at the beginning actually works, and that's good news. And how do we? What are other points to support? There is funding, of course, also foreseen for the member states. The BMVI is a possibility, and there is funding there as well.
Juan Fernando López Aguilar
Thank you, Chair. Commissioner Brunner, as expressed by many of my colleagues, there are aspects worth commenting on in this new visa strategy, including, of course, the restricted visa measures for citizens of hostile countries and the enlargement of multiple-entry visas, which must comply with data protection standards. But as I have a minute, I would like to dwell on something that has not been touched upon. Annexed to the visa code, there is the visa-free regulation. Annex, with the same legal value.
It has to be a regulation in order to comprehend visa waivers. And the thing is that visa waivers have advocates in this parliament on the grounds that they not only facilitate citizens of third countries to make it to the European Union, but also citizens of the European Union to make it to third countries on the grounds of reciprocity, making an impact with their values and their way of life. And so, helping to bring about change even in countries which do not exactly meet our fundamental right standards, but are willing to share the same technical tools in order to secure the merits of visa waiver. So my question is, are you contemplating an initiative on a new mandate of the European Parliament, as has been the case so far ever since the Lisbon Treaty entered into force? There's been an initiative of the commission in order to enlarge, to widen the countries which are exempt from visa requirements on the grounds of reciprocity.
Are you contemplating that initiative?
Magnus Brunner
Yes. A very important question, I think, and a very important point and topic because, yes, if we have a new methodology in the visa strategy, of course, there can be countries which are put on the visa-free part list. Yes, definitely. And vice versa, of course, also on the other hand, on the other side. So yes, this new strategy, with a new methodology, will look into all countries, whether they comply with our values and approaches, and then we can reconsider in a way.
But on both sides, on the positive side, visa-free, yes, definitely, but also, of course, on the stricter side if they don't comply. So my answer is actually yes.
Thank you very much.
Marieke Ehlers
Thank you very much, Mister Bruno. I'll just give you a few moments to get your headphones on. It's good news that we finally have an EU visa strategy. However, as far as I'm concerned, much more is needed. Member states are faced with an enormous problem with third countries that refuse to take back their nationals.
So, the EU must do everything possible to ensure that we can create powerful and robust leverage. You said it yourself. A visa is a privilege, not a right. If a specific country refuses to cooperate on returns, we should then automatically instigate visa sanctions. However, we should also dare to think beyond visa restrictions.
If a country refuses to cooperate, we should bring an end to development cooperation and freeze partnerships. Finally, Commissioner, I've been reading about the facilitation of labor migration. Let me be crystal clear. We have to bring an immediate end to these so-called legal pathways. The idea that we desperately need these people for the economy is nothing more than a fairytale.
If we look at figures from the statistics office in The Netherlands, we see that half the people receiving income support are from outside Europe. Moreover, we have plenty of people filling the available vacancies. We don't have to open the doors using so-called legal routes. Commissioner, my question. Are you willing to roll out an enhanced automatic procedure for sanctions and to suspend development aid as a sanction?
I don't think we can wait any longer, and we can't just deal with everything through this regulation when it comes to returns. Thank you.
Magnus Brunner
Well, first, to the first part of your question or your intervention, it is true that we have to link everything. We have to link also development aid, visa, and trade. That's exactly what the strategy is about. Legal pathways: we don't have to agree on everything, and we don't agree there. I think we need legal pathways, definitely, and we need legal ways for people because our economy, our labor markets, and that's where I disagree with you, will need legal migration in the next years to come.
But we have to differentiate between the illegal part, and I think the basis for, also for the trust of the people in Europe to have legal migration, to have legal pathways, is that we fight the illegal part first. And that's what we tried to do with all the migration reforms. But the legal pathways, legal migration, together with recommendations on talent attraction for innovation, the Choose Europe approach, I think that's something we need. But, as I said, we don't have to agree on everything. The second part of your question is actually also about the revision of Article 25A and the readmission, to make—that's what we try to do: make the mechanism more effective and more flexible.
That's what the revision of the 25a is actually about.
Well,
Malika Sorel
I'm going to add my voice to those who have congratulated you, Commissioner. I'm very pleased to see that a number of issues have been taken into account much better this time. On the question of the return rates, we feel that there should be some kind of automated procedure. So, if countries do not take back their citizens, then the following year, we will reduce the number of visas issued. That would allow third countries to recognize that there are rules, that there is no subjectivity, because we do need to make sure that the EU is respected in its approach.
And I'm not sure that I agree with what Pedro Sánchez has said. How can we have people who are applying for visas and who comply with our rules, at the same time as we have a whole number of illegal immigrants? What we want to do is attract talent. But the danger is that we would actually attract all the talent out of Africa. And I personally feel that we need to remember that we have a responsibility to allow North Africa and Africa as a whole to develop.
Thank you. Commissioner?
Magnus Brunner
Yeah. Attracting talents, as I said before, is really something we also want to focus on. Finding legal pathways, I think, is important. So, yes, I agree there. And the whole strategy, to just repeat that, is about linking the different points.
And, Mister DuBois, in the beginning, actually said, yes, it's challenging with the member states, with the different silos, bringing them together within the Commission, with the member states within the European Union. It is challenging, of course. But, yeah, that's the way it is. But, altogether, we should use this very strong tool we have and link it to other policy areas as well. I think that is exactly what is the basis of the strategy.
Javier Zarzalejos
Thank you, Commissioner. No. There's no follow-up question. Mrs. Sippel.
Birgit Sippel
Thank you very much. And just to underline the need for legal migration into employment, what I hear again and again from companies is that even if they want to have a third-country national come into their company to work there, it can take one year until they have the permission to stay and work. So that's unbelievable, and it might also explain why the number of irregular migrants who are simply willing to work, who have no reason for asylum, is so big, because they cannot wait. They need a perspective. So, I think we have all the reasons to facilitate this.
And together with the strategy, we can even react in case this should be, as some call it, abused. So, I hope the Commission will encourage member states to facilitate the rules. I have another concrete question. You mentioned so-called trusted companies. Could you elaborate a little bit on the criteria to find out what makes a company a so-called trusted company?
Thank you, Mr. Sepel, Commissioner.
Magnus Brunner
Yes. To start with the second part of your question about the criteria, that has to be developed. We are not there yet. We haven't developed that list of criteria yet. But very happy, of course, to hear your views on what criteria we should put in.
So, we are not there yet. But on the first part of your remarks, I totally agree. It should be easier, of course, and more flexible. That's what businesses also ask from us, and that's exactly what the strategy is about: to make this positive part easier and more flexible. And on the other hand, of course, the stricter part when it comes to the abuse of the system.
Javier Zarzalejos
Thank you, Commissioner. We have exhausted our list of speakers. But before we conclude this point, and after your, I would say, interesting clarifying presentation of the business strategy, I would like to give you the floor back for your concluding remarks, if any.
Magnus Brunner
Well, I'd just like to say thank you, first of all, for inviting me and for the discussion. As I said in the beginning, it is really something we should use in a smarter, more clever way. Visa policy is key for us in combining and linking the different policy areas, also with migration on the one hand, but on both sides, illegal and legal migration. I think it is key in linking those policy areas and using the leverage we have. That is really important. That's what we probably didn't do enough in the last few years.
And I think this Visa strategy is a strategy, of course, and how we have brought it on the ground. I think that is something we really have to look into in more detail. Of course, there are some open questions, like Mrs. Sippel mentioned the list and the criteria. Of course, there has to be more work done on that in the next few weeks.
But I think the strategy is also linked with the migration strategy, both positive and negative. It is really key, and we are very proud that, for the first time, we have presented such a strategy. And I'm looking forward to working together with you on the details in the next few months. Thank you.
Javier Zarzalejos
Thanks, Commissioner Brunner, for your presentation. Thanks, member, for your intervention. We conclude this point, and then we resume our session at 2:30 in the afternoon. That will be an in-camera session.
Yes. Yes.
Ask anything about this video — I analyse its transcript to answer.