Subcommittee on Human Rights Ordinary meeting
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DROI European Parliament
Follow its sittingsMunya Benjamin
Against this backdrop, the country's economic room for manoeuvre remains extremely limited. For the Tunisian population, this translates in practical terms into a deterioration in living conditions, declining disposable income, regular shortages of basic goods and medicines, and a growing sense of insecurity. These economic tensions directly fuel social tensions. Protest movements are emerging on a regular basis, while mistrust of institutions is growing. The situation of sub-Saharan migrants in Tunisia is also a cause for serious concern.
Cases of violence, discrimination, and collective expulsions have been documented in a climate marked by stigmatizing political rhetoric. European migration policies, in particular the return directive, seriously undermine fundamental rights by facilitating the deportation and detention of migrants. By outsourcing this management to countries like Tunisia, the European Union is condoning and normalizing authoritarian practices in direct contradiction to its own principles. This security-driven approach sacrifices human rights in favor of border control and undermines the EU's credibility. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, the deterioration of human rights raises questions of consistency between the strategic interests and fundamental commitments of the EU.
Moreover, the EU should strengthen, as requested by the European Court of Auditors and the European Ombudsman, its independent system for monitoring human rights and assessing risks in all products funded in Tunisia. Tunisia is one of the key partners under the pact for the Mediterranean, the first pillar of which is based on investment, particularly in the energy sector. And following the third anniversary of the Memorandum of Understanding, we have to defend consistency within this framework with the fundamental principles of the European Union's external action. In this regard, in order to ensure compliance with these principles, the pact for the Mediterranean should operationally integrate safeguards regarding democracy and the rule of law into its investment framework. No sound investment policy in the energy sector or in other sectors can be envisaged without an independent judiciary.
No large-scale economic cooperation is possible in a country where unfair trials imprison business people, journalists, judges, lawyers, civil society representatives, and critical voices. This authoritarian trend that affects the current regime in Tunisia is seriously undermining legal certainty and investor confidence. It is also involved in migratory pressure as well. Ladies and gentlemen, the effective implementation of democratic conditionality and bilateral relations, support for civil society, and the demand for the release of all political prisoners is now not merely necessary but urgent. Thank you for your attention.
Speaker 3
Thank you very much. I would now like to give the floor to Miss Dalila Mbaric. You have the floor for 6 minutes. MEP's chair today in Tunisia talking about a fair trial presupposes that there is a trial. This has been the case since July.
Dalila Ben Mbarak Mzadek
I am not exaggerating. I have been following this. There has been a trial against me for violate, and it violates human rights. And as a lawyer myself, I'm also a political refugee. I'm also the sister of a political prisoner, and I speak before you at the risk of my own freedom.
A fair trial presupposes that there is a trial, a crime, a defined defense, evidence, defendants, an independent court, yet today in Tunisia. There are defendants without charges, crimes without evidence, witnesses without credibility, decisions without hearings, hearings without defendants, systematic pretrial detention without justification or limits, and heavy sentences without effective defense. And this is not just a trend. It's part of a broader system. Judges, lawyers, journalists, human rights defenders are being harassed, terrorized, prosecuted, imprisoned for daring to condemn this system.
Last week, the president of the Magistrates Association was sentenced to one year in prison for speaking out against the erosion of judicial independence. In 2022, the High Council of the Judiciary was dissolved. 57 judges were dismissed despite a ruling by the administrative court ordering the reinstatement of 49 of them. The judiciary, which has become the judicial function under Mister Said's constitution, is now under the direct control of the president. The end of judicial independence has marked the beginning of our nightmare.
The so-called conspiracy case is the most striking example of this. This case involves around 40 convicted individuals, democratic opponents from across the political spectrum, intellectuals, lawyers, journalists, human rights defenders, a catchall trial in which the authorities have lumped together all those they seek to exclude from the public sphere. It was initiated by the minister of justice in February 2023 without any prior evidence. But following several speeches by president Kais Said in which he accused unidentified individuals of treason and plotting against state security, he unequivocally asserted their guilt even before their arrest. Arrest warrants were issued in February 2023 following absurd interrogations with no questions asked about the charges against them.
Conspiracy with European and American diplomats and mainly ambassadors, attempted assassination of the president, membership of a terrorist group, among other extremely serious charges. And yet, in the case filed, there has been no judicial investigation, no material evidence, no photos, no recordings, no wiretaps, nothing. Instead, there are two anonymous testimonies based on indirect, imaginary, and inconsistent accounts, which are not supported by any evidence in the case file. In short, these anonymous witnesses are said to have uncovered an international plot that all the Tunisian security services and intelligence agencies never detected nor did they ever investigate it, neither before nor after the arrests. It's completely absurd, and highlights the tragedy of this trial.
Since the issue of the commit orders, the defendant sentenced to terms ranging from five to 45 years in prison have never seen a judge again, either in the first instance, in the appeal court, or in any other instance. Among them, and I will mention those that I officially represent as a lawyer, but there are many more, a notary and secretary general of the Republican party who's been condemned to 20 years in prison. Gazzi Shawesi and Rizya Belshazz, lawyers and politicians. Shayme Isan, a writer and sociologist. Kayyam Turki, an intellectual and researcher, sentenced to 47 years.
Abdelmediyasi, an intellectual writer and writer, eight years of prison centers. Najeeb Chebi, a lawyer and secretary general of the Civilization Front and a historic figure in the opposition since the 1960s, ten years. Ayushi Hamami, my colleague and human rights defender for over four decades, has been sentenced to five years in prison. And my brother, Joar Memberek, a professor of constitutional law, has been sentenced to 20 years in prison. He was torn away from his children, his students, and his 82-year-old father who is now on hunger strike for the last 20 days.
It's his 10th strike protesting against the terrible conditions that his son is enduring. And if all of that wasn't enough, for months now, several of them have been transferred and sent away to regional prisons, kill hundreds of kilometers from their family homes. They are systematically isolated from the outside world, kept at a distance from their lawyers, and torn away from their loved ones. And in the meantime, their health is deteriorating day after day. This is how our leaders, our intellectuals, these historical figures in the struggle for freedoms and rights and democracy in Tunisia are being treated today by a regime that has no qualms about smearing them, crushing them, and branding them as terrorist, traitors, and sellouts.
But to whom have they sold out? To the West, to you. Today, we are at the mercy of a system that exploits the justice system to establish an irrational, delusional, and paranoid dictatorship with no checks and balances. And this does not only concern political opponents. All categories of people are being affected.
Arrests have become a daily occurrence for Tunisians. The present population has increased by about 40% between 2021 and 2025. Everything that I've described has been told to me by the UN and other major organizations. There have been a number of reports demanding the release of political prisoners, especially those affected by this conspiracy file. Then we have called for the release, more recently in March 2026, of major leaders.
We've invested the EU has invested, considerable resources in Tunisia's judicial reform, and this has been wiped out. It's been faced with silence. I understand the geopolitical interest, but allow me to put forward a strictly pragmatic point. A dictatorship without checks and balances is not a stable partner. It's a ticking time bomb.
Oppression with no way out always ends up exploding, and it sweeps away all illusions of stability. Supporting the rule of law in Tunisia is not a moral stance. It is in the European Union's strategic interest. In conclusion, I would therefore like to make some specific requests. Firstly, the systemic inclusion of the judicial situation in Tunisia in the EU-Tunisia political dialogue, making cooperation between Tunisia and the EU conditional upon respect for judicial independence, human rights and freedoms as provided for in the numerous agreements already signed over the past decades, the appointment of a European Parliament special reporter on Tunisian political prisoners, an official request for the release of those convicted in the case of the conspiracy against state security.
So I believe that there are many people who are gathered together in prison. We have to do our utmost to relieve their suffering and isolation. I have spoken at the risk of my own freedom, and I do so on behalf of those who can no longer speak for themselves.
Merci, Dalila. Thank.
Speaker 5
You, Dalila. Now, Miss Lucy. Well, thank you, chairman, members, ladies, and gentlemen. Tunisia today, racism and xenophobia are no longer marginal phenomena. They are clearly impacting the lives of migrants and refugees, that's in Tunisia and those who are trying to defend their rights.
But I want to draw your attention to a very worrying situation, where human rights violations are taking place within an increasingly restrictive and hostile climate. But I'm going to start with a very fundamental point, and that is that the fate currently facing dark-skinned migrants and Tunisians and human rights defenders is not a series of separate events. They're all expressions of the same authoritarian drift, which are eroding the rule of law and weakening the essential safeguards for the protection of fundamental rights. It's the same mechanism, stigmatism in public discourse, instilling fear in society, and gradually weakening protections and safeguards. When civic space shrinks, it becomes more difficult to document, denounce, and in this context, those people who are defending human rights also become victims themselves, exposed to reprisals that call into question the very possibility of defending fundamental freedoms.
The case of my organization, MEMTI, is a clear example of this. MEMTI is an association that fights against all types and forms of discrimination, particularly racial discrimination. Mister Sadi Mossbah, its president, is in detention. She's been sentenced to 8 years in prison. I've been sentenced to 3 years myself.
Other members to between one and three years, and we are awaiting the imminent implementation of these sentences. This is all taking place within a very specific political, racial, security context. Following the signing of the agreement, the MOU between the European Union and Tunisia, and against the backdrop of the migrant crisis, Black people, migrants, refugees, as well as those defending their rights have been increasingly exposed to stigmatization. Against this backdrop, NMT has become a scapegoat because it defends black people, because it promotes an anti-racist human rights agenda, and because it highlights violations that some people prefer to hush up. And our organization has been directly targeted.
So please consider this political message this sends to all human rights defenders. In Tunisia, defending equality, fighting against racism, giving a voice to people who are discriminated against or marginalized can mean yourself exposed to serious reprisals. And then there's another deeply worrying factor. Sadiya and a black woman and other black members have also been deprived of their right to vote, to run for election, and the right to appear in public spaces for five years. That measure is a serious form of exclusion, which raises serious concerns about human rights, and regarding discrimination and fundamental rights.
And that's where the EU has a special responsibility. Since the signing of the MOU, cooperation has been strengthened within a framework of control and externalization. But let me be clear. This context is already marked by the stigmatization of black people, refugees, migrants. So this is not a neutral act.
When the powers limit the freedoms and target civil society, they control migrants without effective safeguards and human rights, that sends out a dangerous signal. And I'm not using these words lightly. When hatred becomes commonplace, when victims are not protected, when defenders themselves become targets, and when impunity becomes a measure of the day, discrimination no longer is a mere incident. It risks becoming a system. And so there are three clear requests I would like to raise of the EU.
Please, firstly, make any cooperation on migration with Tunisia conditional upon concrete, verifiable, independent human rights safeguards, because otherwise, you are going to be part and parcel of this systematic victimization. Second, they established a public and independent mechanism to monitor the real impact of European migration programs and funding. Thirdly, try to generally protect civil society in Tunisia by supporting human rights defenders and calling for the release of militants who have been imprisoned and established effective safeguards against discrimination. Fourthly, shoulder direct responsibility in pollution racism by shifting its borders towards the EU. By doing this, the EU is exporting its own discriminatory approach.
Speaker 6
And the Tunisians, black Tunisians, and people from below, from the Sub Saharan region are affected, and you are, therefore, co-responsible for this degrading treatment. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed for that. And now, online, we have Brahim Belguid. You have the floor for five minutes.
Brahim Belguid
Yes. Thank you very much indeed, Mr. Chair. Thank you for inviting me. I'm going to talk to you about the evaluation of the Tunisian report before the African Court on Human Rights. We have seen their systemic violation of rights in Tunisia.
And all mandates for the commission had a lot of work to do. I don't have much time, and so I will just touch upon some issues which were raised during the verification. We've been talking about implementation of the African Court on Human Rights, '21, which ordered Tunisia to return to constitutional democracy, which was adopted by the European Parliament also when they were talking about the boycott on the legislative elections. But this wasn't done, unfortunately, for the presidential elections.
It was.
Brahim Belguid
Also, a question about the independence of the judiciary, the constitutional court as well. The 2022 constitution established what was called a constitutional organization, but which doesn't have the necessary independence to exercise its role. So the body never came into being, despite various rulings from the African Court on Human Rights urging Tunisia to establish this institution. Unfortunately, the connection has been lost.
Well,
Speaker 10
We shall wait a moment to see if we get the connection once again. Otherwise, we'll move on to the next speaker and come back at a later stage to mister Vergitte. Okay. Well, I will give the floor now to Mr. Irma Cora.
Speaker 9
And once the connection is reestablished, we'll come back to our speaker. Apparently, this is a generalized system like this morning in the EP. Please go ahead. Yes. Thank you very much indeed for having invited Mister Satori and for giving me the floor.
Florian Ermacora
So I am going to bring some linguistic diversification into this by speaking English, if I may, because that will mean I can be a little faster in delivering my statement. I only have 8 minutes, which isn't too long.
Many thanks, mister Zatori, for organizing this and giving a voice really to the Tunisian civil society. And I want to express really all my appreciation for those who are representing the fundamental rights in Tunisia. We are fully aware of the risks you are taking, and you have all our appreciation by all means. And I said the same thing to your colleagues whom I met three weeks ago in Tunis. Contrary to mister Satturi, I was able to go to Tunisia and discuss the implementation of the strategic and comprehensive partnership agreement, which the European Union has concluded with Tunisia in July 23.
And I took that occasion not only to talk to the authorities, but also to the civil society representatives. And there, I basically made the same message in terms of sharing my appreciation. I'm not boring you for too long on the evident things, how important it is to work with our neighbor, Tunisia, on a number of issues. And, I think there were very good reasons to conclude a strategic and comprehensive partnership agreement with Tunisia. All this is based on the existing legal frame, which is the association agreement from '95 where the respect for human rights and democratic principles are very prominently enshrined and underlined.
And we are reminding our Tunisian partners regularly, of course, of this joint agreement and this joint basis. And by the way, we are not just doing this because we think fundamental rights as such, which is evident, are so important. We are also seeing it because an important part of our cooperation is about economics, creating prosperity for Tunisia and, of course, creating also economic win win situations for Europe and for Tunisia. And fundamental rights are very important in that context as well. How do we want to get any economic operator into the country if there is not a rule of law respected in the country, if you don't have fair trials and predictable legal situation.
So from that point of view, we are making at all possible times those points towards our partners in Indonesia, but we do much more than this. We are, in every detail, monitoring the compliance with international, fundamental rights, standards in a series of reports, which either we analyze from other parties or we are carrying out ourselves. We are doing public statements together with the member states. We are present at trials. We go to the courtrooms wherever possible and follow those trials to give transparency to what is happening.
And we are addressing very clearly the issues you're mentioning. And I did this in person three weeks ago, with the ministry of justice, with the ministry of foreign affairs, with the ministry of economic cooperation, and others, in a direct and clear way. When I was in Tunis three weeks ago, I raised, in particular, the case of Sadiya Mosbach, who has been imprisoned in the first instance for eight years. My colleagues in our delegation know her well. They work together. So this is much more than bureaucratic duties.
This is empathy. This is really a bit emotional, I must say. If someone who works with EU money to do things in our interest is then on that basis put into jail for 8 years, this is not acceptable, and we made this very clear. And made the connects, of course, to budget support operations, which are very much needed in Indonesia in the current macroeconomic situation. We are making the connects to the investment climate, to all the investments which could be done in this country.
So I would say we are very outspoken and clear. Our head of delegation has been summoned by the president a few months ago because the president doesn't like the transparency and the actions of the European Union. But, of course, we are holding the flag there. We do much more. I hear a lot of criticism of the European Commission and the European Union.
Honestly, I think one should also point to the very important good things which we are doing. Currently, we have running programs of support of the civil society in Tunisia and a value of €50,000,000. You don't find any player in the world who is so active on helping the protection of fundamental rights in Indonesia as the European Union. And also when it comes to the migration cooperation, migration cooperation is not only or primarily about border management. It is very much about the protection of refugees. It is us working with the UNHCR.
It is us working with the IOM, and working with means funding. We are the only ones who are really significantly funding these organizations who are protecting the migrants in Indonesia. So I would ask, please, with all the criticism, and I understand that we are also opening flanks to criticism, but I would really ask you also to consider the positive things we are doing. And please reflect for a moment on what would be the situation without the EU intervening in Tunisia. But one could always do more, without any question, and I can just assure you that we are following all these cases very, very closely.
We will continue to raise these issues. We will consider and review our kind of cooperation with Tunisia and factor all these developments on the fundamental right side into this cooperation. And I mentioned, already, investment climate, super important for Tunisia. This doesn't go any better. We won't find investors, and we have difficulties promoting investments if it goes on like this.
I mentioned budget support. There are conditions related to the respect of fundamental rights. And all this is very carefully looked at. So from that point of view, my message here, and this is not a bureaucratic message. It is a message of empathy.
We are really looking at you, and we appreciate a lot your work. And I like all the meetings we are having, and please, advise us and happy to work further on this basis. Many thanks.
Speaker 1
Thank you very much indeed, Mr. El Makora. Thank you for being so frank. I've been saying for weeks, months now how ridiculous it is to see NGOs working on projects designed and financed by the EU, and being sentenced to several years in prison whilst they're doing the work that we commissioned them to do. I've been saying this for more than a month now, but for you to say it here in public is very different. So, thank you.
And to the propagandist on line, if NGO workers can be condemned to years in prison, and you're applauding it, then the president should be condemned as well, because the EU is directly financing the Tunisian state. That's a great thing for Tunisians. And I don't understand why on social networks, certain trolls are welcoming the condemnation of a woman sentencing her to eight years in prison because she supported a migrant program, supported with some 10 thousand euros from the EU. So thank you for speaking out about that. I'm told that Mister Berggitte is online once again, so I'll give the floor back to him.
Brahim Belguid
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, I'm delighted to hear the representative of the commission talking about this article two, which has been frozen from this association agreement from 1995 because the human rights situation in Tunisia isn't only about strategic interests or a moral duty for the EU. It's a duty according to article 2, which is very clear. And, Mister Elmer Cora is quite correct to recall that. Quite honestly, for the commission, it's not looking particularly reactive.
It seems to prepare to stroke the beast and keep it calm on the question of transparency, for example, about the commission itself. There may be certain questions there, and excluding civil society. We don't have much time, Bahim. So if you could come back to this specific subject for the remaining 4 minutes, it will be great. You were talking about the African court.
Yes. Of course. As I was saying. In the 86 ordinary session of the African Court on Human Rights, it's just that it's good to establish a balance, and, we're seeing a confirmation, because we have had another arrest today. Yesterday, one of our advisers was unfortunately sentenced to 18 months in prison as well.
And that's basically what's happening in Tunisia: arrests, violations, which have become not so much a strategy, but rather a policy to hamper everyone, with no intermediary bodies, and I think I can leave it there. Well, thank you very much indeed. I will open the floor to debate with colleagues. Mister Assis, I believe you are going to be the first speaker. Please go ahead.
Francisco Assis
Yes. Thank you. I'll be speaking Portuguese.
I'd like to start by thanking the panelists for providing all of this information. I listened quite closely to everything that was said. I was in Tunisia in 2014 during the first presidential elections in the post Ben Ali dictatorship period, and there was a lot of fear and jubilation at the time. There was a great deal of hope surrounding the future of Tunisia. And following that, I have been keeping an eye on how Tunisia has progressed as a country.
And it's very sad for me to hear everything that you've said. It confirms our worst fears. The Arab Spring started in Tunisia. That movement started there, and it's now subject to a dictatorship. And we're also seeing major issues affecting the judiciary.
This is a sign that the dictatorship will gain further ground. We've seen a number of examples of how this is going to happen, and it is happening, and how it affects the EU as well. The EU has to often interact with countries that don't embody democratic values, and this leads to problems as well. So we have to try and continue with these relationships, but not at any cost, obviously. And having listened to Mr.
Binance, we heard about very serious issues and questions for the European Union. We cannot be complicit with everything that's going on relating to racism and segregation in Tunisia. That's something that affects the population. We need to fight against that, and approach it sensitively. This is something that we've discussed in the European Parliament, but we have to be more demanding of the Tunisian authorities.
And if behavior doesn't change, then we have to find a way of changing or withdrawing our relationship with them, because we cannot be complicit with what's going on in Tunisia today in relation with migrants. Thank you.
Mariani.
Speaker 1
Mister Mariani, would you allow Miss Gomez to take the floor first? Because she has to leave us to go to another meeting. Miss Gomez Lopez, you have the floor.
Sandra Gómez López
Thank you, Sharon. I want to speak Spanish. Thank you.
Thank you very much, indeed, and thank you to my colleague too for allowing me to speak now. I wanted to ask about the question of border management and migration because I know that the EU has been making some important investments in Tunisia, I think more than €100,000,000 in border control. Now there are many international organizations, human rights bodies. They're telling us that there are border checks which are infringing on the rights of migrants, mass deportations. And I was just wondering whether we can be sure that we're not financing that.
That's my question to the commission. Can we say very honestly that some of the money which is going to Tunisia, I'm talking about migration because obviously there are other issues there as well, but at least on that front, can we be sure that we're not funding some of the abuse and ill treatment which the migrant population is facing? Thank you. Thank you. Mister Mariani, you have the floor.
Yeah. Thank.
Thierry Mariani
Thank you very much indeed, mister chairman. Well, having heard what I've heard, I'm feeling rather uncomfortable because when I hear Mister Florian El Makoto, what he has to say, it illustrates the problem that we have in the EU because on the one hand, Tunisia is a reliable strategic partner for the EU. Let's be clear. For years, we, well, we've been expecting control of the migratory flows. But what we're seeing now is that the dozens of boats crossing the Mediterranean during the summer right now, well, it is something which has disappeared.
Tunisia has become a reliable partner in developing the Mediterranean Basin in the African continent, also in combating illegal migration, which is one of the major concerns for our citizens. Figures speak for themselves. In 2022 to 2026, more than 21,000 voluntary returns of African migrants in a regular situation were organized from Tunisia. And when you look at the clandestine flows, they're still ongoing, but we no longer are facing the situation we were seeing some years ago. And so we shouldn't lose sight of the fact, not to be cynical, of Europe's interest in this, but Europe's interest does not justify abuse or misuse.
When I hear that someone has a contract or whatever their status and they work for the EU, but they've been thrown into prison, it's something we cannot accept. I fully agree with you on that. So question I'm wondering about is one I'm putting to you, Mr. Chairman. Why in this type of hearing do we never invite the representatives of the embassies? Is that a choice?
You can maybe answer me afterwards. But I think that sometimes it might be useful to have a different view and hear the defense side, if you like. So when I hear about anti-black behavior, racist behavior, yes, I would condone that as well. We simply can't accept it. But then the Arab Spring, personally, I think, was a disaster.
Sorry. It's ended up in the situation we know now for the Tunisians. The Muslim Brothers government plunged the country into chaos. We have a different government now. Shouldn't we try to seek partnership by trying to bring them back onto a more, a path which is more respectful of our values?
Speaker 1
Thank you. Mister Marianne, do you want me to answer your question right now, or maybe at the end? Okay. But, yeah, I did register it. Don't worry.
Mister Paet?
Mister Frolich, no.
Speaker 1
Okay. You're the Tunisia rapporteur for Efforteur. You're not a member of the sub community, but if you as rapporteur, I'm very happy to give you two minutes to speak.
I'm into it now.
Speaker 1
Not right now. Thank you. Well, I would prefer now. Don't wait too long, because we're pushing ahead with the agenda. Is it the commission that would be taking the floor now?
I'll throw those questions back to our invited speakers, but let me ask one question of the commission before we do that. In October 2024, if memory serves, the European Ombudsman recommended that the commission set out the criteria that might lead to suspension of a European funded contract in the case of human rights violation. So that dates back to 2024. Since then, has the commission thought about what operational measures might be taken? We're looking now at the leverage that might allow us to move forward.
If there's a violation of article two of human rights, what do you do? Have you got operational measures in place to react? Now coming back to Mister Mariani's question now. Now you weren't a member of this subcommittee at the beginning of the parliamentary term, so it's not your fault. But I did explain how we would work in these meetings.
What we said was that when NGOs and opponents and human rights defenders come in, we would not put them in the same room as representatives of third-country governments. We thought that they might be coerced. There might be pressure on them, and the like. However, embassies can, of course, come once per quarter to exchange views with our committee, and they can give the official position of their country and what have you. Indeed, I want us to be transparent, and so we send our minutes to the embassies.
I wanted to get out of this situation where minutes were creatively drafted. We send out agendas. We send out minutes the same way that nano NGOs can get minutes, the embassies can get them, and they can follow our debates as a result. I maybe the Tunisian embassy is listening. And if the Tunisian ambassador would like to come to one of our future meetings of the subcommittee to talk to members, then our door is open to you.
Sometimes there are bilateral meetings with coordinators and chairman that something has been done in the past, and we're not changing that convention. But at the beginning of this parliamentary term, we decided not to mix the two groups of speakers. Now if you'll allow just one other question, I can hear what you say about migration. But for some people, the only criteria is stopping migrants arrive. But then I would say, at what cost?
What I see is that the price Tunisians are paying on the ground is intolerable. So how long can we use stopping migration as a pretext for accepting what's going on? How far can we allow these regimes to go? I believe in fundamental rights, and I don't think we can allow awful things to happen elsewhere just because it stops migrants from arriving on our shores. Transporting migrants to the desert and dropping them there without food or drink in a situation where, frankly, they could actually die is not something that we, in Europe, were trying to pay for, and to see NGOs implementing EU-funded projects being sent to prison for eight years is not something we can accept.
There are extraordinary things going on in Tunisia. It's not acceptable. And I think at some stage, we have to say stop. This will not be done in our name. Not just to stop migration, not with our money, because we spend a lot of money in Tunisia.
These things have to stop. It's not acceptable. It's not fair. It doesn't correspond to our values. And indeed, it's not necessarily effective in stemming migration.
So there's what we do here. There's what the commission is doing. There's what the EAS is doing, and they'll speak in a minute. And then there's the misrun member states who also have to take their responsibility. Italy, for example, and what they're doing in their relations with President Geis is not without an impact.
We have to respect the rule of law, fundamental rights. And to do that and make sure those rights are accepted, we all have to sing from the same hymn sheet, say the same thing. And I think eventually, we will get around to doing that. Now perhaps I've spoken rather too much at length, but I'll give the floor to Madam Benjamin now and give you five minutes to answer the questions that have been asked of you. Thank you.
Munya Benjamin
Well, I'm not sure there were questions, per se. Comments more. When it comes to migration, I think that the migration policy has exacted a high price in human rights and human dignity. I think we all know that. When you have an economic and social crisis like the one that Tunisia is going through, this political crisis like the one going on in Tunisia, then people just want to leave.
60% of young people are trying to leave Tunisia to get to Europe. But when we had the Arab Spring, people were trying to get back to Tunisia. Now fewer people are leaving, perhaps now from Tunisia, but migrants are taking other routes, going through Libya, for example, or elsewhere. You can't stop migratory flows in the long term when the conditions in the country of origin are conditions like those that we're seeing in Tunisia at the moment. Now I don't agree with saying that the Arab Spring was a disaster.
The disaster is what's happening now. That is the president's side regime taking apart what democracy had put in place. That is the disaster. Now supporting civil society. Well, there's been repression, but civil society is resisting that repression in the face of great difficulty.
And what we ask of the EU is that it offers yet more support to civil society because civil society is paying a high price for the resistance that it is putting up against this repression. So I think that the EU has to be a little bit more demanding on the Tunisian authorities when it comes to respecting democratic principles. Thank you. I'm going to give you the floor. Would you like to speak immediately?
Speaker 19
I was gonna give the floor to Davila, but you can speak first. I have no trouble with that. Danielle, I'm gonna give you all the floor. Don't worry. Thank you very much.
Dalila Ben Mbarak Mzadek
Let me just react to what Mister Mariani has said, if I've got your name right. You said that Tunisia is a reliable and sound partner because the number of immigrants has dropped considerably. And you say that the Arab Spring was a disaster. Now the Arab Spring was a revolution of the Tunisian people against the dictatorship that had been in place since 1956. So for you, reliable and safe means a country ruled by an oppressive dictator puts its own people in prison, and treats them not as citizens, but like animals.
Is that your idea of a safe and reliable partner? Was Ben Ali a reliable partner? He was in power for 23 years, and then he was overturned by a population that had had enough of dictatorship, a people that wants democracy, that is seeking freedom, people that want prosperity for themselves. We are no longer a colony. We are no longer a subpopulation just because we are south of Europe.
We want to live in freedom. We want to be prosperous. We want to live in democracy. We want to be citizens and that we are treated as citizens. There's absolutely no reason why countries of the third world or the Arab countries should continue to be oppressed by dictatorships, see their people sent to prison, and see dictators oppressing their people.
A safe and reliable partner doesn't oppress its own people. Tunisia has unemployment at the moment. Tunisians are hungry. We don't even have bread made of flour at the moment. We don't have a public health system.
We don't have a transport system. Tunisia doesn't have an education system that we can rely on. All sorts of people are suffering. Why are Tunisians emigrating, be it qualified people, unemployed people, or managers? Why are they all leaving Tunisia?
Why are young people and doctors leaving Tunisia? Why are young people endangering their own lives to cross the sea? You think they're doing that for fun? It's out of destitution and oppression. That's what's driving them to do this.
It's driving them to leave their families, their children, their parents, their home, their part of town. I've been a political exile for 3 months, and I can tell you I lived a really nice life at home in my hometown. And I was forced to leave because I don't want to go to prison, because I don't want to be sentenced to prison for telling the truth, for doing my job, for talking about the conditions of imprisonment and those who are imprisoned. It is not a reliable partner. Tunisia and any country that oppresses its people is not a reliable partner.
Speaker 3
A reliable partner leads its people to democracy and prosperity. We have a right to democracy. We are entitled to freedom. One day, this will all blow up in your face. Thank you very much, Minus.
Speaker 5
And then, if the Internet connection allows, we will hear from our speaker online. Thank you, Delilah, for your answer. Let me reply to Mister SC then. Well, I'm not accusing the EU or the Tunisian government. The side regime is the first to blame, but that doesn't mean that the EU is without blame.
The EU is funding certain activities, and that is being used to say that the cooperation with Tunisia is legitimate even though the authorities there are limiting freedoms and oppressing its people. So we can't deny that there is some blame to be apportioned to the EU. On the one hand, we're saying that the EU defends human rights, and then at the same time, propping up an authoritarian government that is abusing its citizens. Thank you very much, Mister Benegitte. I'll give you the floor if you would like to react.
Brahim Belguid
Thank you very much. I don't wish to repeat what Delilah and Ofran have said. Let me say that, if you don't know your history, you are doomed to live through it again. Well, Tunisia was the good pupil at the time of the revolution. Now things have turned around, and things risk blowing up in our face again.
If one person only has all the power after a coup, if the executive can sack judges without any sort of process, then you're in a difficult situation. There should be a huge question mark over that sort of thing. Thank you very much. Mr Emma Caron, please.
Florian Ermacora
You again in English. I really think, most often, whatever you discuss, the European Union and the European Commission is portrayed too negatively compared to what we are doing, and this is also the case in our policy with Tunisia. I think it's, I think it's evident that we cannot withdraw from our cooperation with Tunisia. This wouldn't help anyone. Does anyone believe that if we stopped cooperating on migration that no migrant would be sent into the desert by the authorities?
I don't think so. Honestly, I don't think so. I think the contrary is true. With our border management and overall with our migration cooperation, we do many very good things. First of all, migration cooperation is not just border management.
It is preparing for legal migration in the interest of both EU and Tunisia. It is about the return of voluntary return of migrants from Tunisia back to their home countries which we are supporting according to international standards. And very importantly, and I mentioned it before, it's the protection of migrants in Tunisia. We are there, and we are funding the IOM and UNHCR and others to help migrants in need and protect them. There's no problem else than the EU doing this, and all this is under migration funding.
So when you criticize the EU for cooperating on migration, then please criticize and keep in mind that we are the leading force in protecting migrants in Tunisia. And even on border management, imagine how many lives have been saved by not drowning in the Mediterranean by reducing irregular migration departure from Tunisia. This is a big issue. We have saved, I think, through this cooperation a lot of lives. Another very important component of border management cooperation is conduct of the authorities in Tunisia.
We have funding cooperation programs where people who are in the navy, in the coast guard, and so on are properly trained on how to deal with migrants respecting international law. I can give you all the evidence of all these programs. This is the European Union, doing very good things there. And, yes, incidents are happening. This is probably true.
We don't know the precise scale, but we have independent monitoring operations to make sure that this doesn't, that this doesn't happen. And when I went to Tunisia three weeks ago, we spent the whole afternoon talking to all the representatives of Coast Guard, Navy, armed other armed forces. And I made exactly the point. Let's cooperate more, have transparency, avoid incidents, train, and do everything necessary to avoid these unfortunate things happening. So that's also part of our investment and our money in Indonesia, apart from all the other cooperation.
But I said before, we are really regretting the treatment of civil society representatives partially paid by ourselves, and we need really to review constantly the development of this situation and adjust our cooperation with Tunisia in this light. Thanks.
Speaker 1
Okay. Rapporteur, if you'd like to say the floor is now or never because we'll give you the floor, and then it's the yes. We'll have the floor.
Thank.
Speaker 20
you. Well, I only caught the last part of this discussion, but I think it highlighted the various contradictions related to the situation with Tunisia because it's absolutely true that human rights are often violated, increasingly worse, actually, because we've got a body that's strengthening its autocratic position, rule of law being undermined, the press, magistrate also, but Tunisia, and also the other countries to the South of the Mediterranean. Well, we know it's happening there with the library civil society because are things happening in Egypt, Algeria? Morocco seems much calmer. We'd know more about Tunisia because civil society in Tunisia is much more allowed, much more alive than in other countries in spite of the regress of the repression.
Speaker 24
So I want to think about the role of the EU. I don't have a clear answer because I, myself, am aware of this contradiction of being in a situation where, while we cooperate with the regime, which also exercises violence. But I heard something that makes us think, really, what evidence do we have that if the EU were to remove its support, the situation would get better for migrants, etcetera? I don't know. Is it okay as it is?
Speaker 20
I don't think so, because we should be much more demanding. And, obviously, that's something that needs to be put to diplomatic representatives, calling for the respect of what was agreed upon. That article too is absolutely crystal clear, and so we can't close our eyes to it. But between us, we also have to say that if the EU were not present as it is today, we would not have, say, the migratory flows. I'm sure there'd be more of them, and we would probably have even more victims, people dying in the Mediterranean.
Speaker 21
I'll conclude by saying that I think it's absolutely crucial to see the role of the UN agencies. Syed didn't want them to operate for the longest time, not to register migrants, because there's this paranoia, if you like, about migration. But we, well, we, as the people who represent us in Tunisia, absolutely have to ensure that a leading role is played by the UNHCR and the other UN bodies because they can moderate, I think, the situation with the migrants, also stressing the human rights side. Thank you.
Okay.
Speaker 1
This is Alexandra Gatto, joint head of the North Africa Division at the EAS. You have the floor.
Alexandra Gatto
Chairman, thank you. Thank you all. I would like to start indeed my intervention with a big thank and words of appreciation to all of those who have intervened, especially the Tunisian speakers who shared important testimonies and also accepted personal risks in doing that. Unfortunately, I would say that what we have heard and the testimonies on the duration of human rights and rule of law in Tunisia are not new to me and to many of these colleagues. We regularly monitor the situation.
Speaker 25
We have a very open-door policy at all levels, to civil society representatives. We're in very close contact as it has been also evoked, and we are aware of the situation. Let me maybe reflect at the end of this discussion about what we do and what also we can do as you. I think one thing that has been said several times, but it's worth recalling, is that as the EU, we do provide a very strong and solid legal and political framework for relations with Tunisia. This is not a given with every partner in the southern neighborhood or all around the world.
Speaker 23
So I think that from our side, the intention is to make full use of the avenues and the links, the channels that we do have and we still have with Tunisia as a government and the strong also links and channels of information that we have with the civil society of Tunisia. Legal framework, I'm referring to the association agreement. This has been recalled many times. We do have very strong commitment to human rights in it, article two. It is a commitment, legal commitment, and we reaffirm that this is at the core of relations with Tunisia.
Alexandra Gatto
Political engagement, yes. This agreement also allow us to have very regular meetings with the Tunisian authorities. Let me recall that last year, after some difficult times, we managed to relaunch a series of subcommittees. Subcommittees are technical meetings on all different topics, that go from, I don't transport, economic cooperation, but they also include human rights. We did have a human rights subcommittee in July, and rest assured that we did raise all the issues and concerns that were raised in this room directly with the Tunisian authorities.
It is important that these structures, you know, remain in place, are used, and they're used in a good way. So we hear the concerns, and we are able to pass them. Then, of course, the question is how we make these messages. We are faced as much as this committee today was faced today, sometimes with the concerns of security and protection of those we would like to support and help. So some of these messages are passed in a very discreet way, hopefully, that this would be, I mean, effective.
Some are also made public, and we didn't shy away from a lot of statements jointly between you and the member states, especially in the past years. We also put our face to it. So our colleagues present in Tunis often, together with the member states delegates, do participate in trial observations, including the very notable conspiracy case that was evoked, unfortunately, today many times. So we have tools, and we don't shy away from using them. Another one is the EU special representative for human rights.
Speaker 23
As we know, we also have one. It is a powerful voice that we have, and Tunisia has been visited among one of her priorities for 2026. Maybe let me also conclude by recalling to all of us that our relations with Tunisia are, first of all, unavoidable. It's one of our closest neighbors. Our economies are interlinked.
Our historical links, our exchanges of, you know, populations are, go far back in time before our spring and before we even had the agreements. So, I think that's our role, especially as the diplomatic service of the EU, to keep and try to engage positively with Tunisia. This engagement that is not always, you know, smooth or as smooth as we would like, allows us to raise important issues, including the ones that have been raised today. So thank you again, and I would like maybe to conclude with some words of, in a way, renewed engagement and continuous engagement from our side. Thank you.
Speaker 1
Thank you very much, Miss Gatto, and thank you to everybody. Thank you for your contributions to the discussion. In the subcommittee trois, we will continue to follow what's going on in Tunisia and what NGO representatives and human rights defenders and civil society are going through. Now before we leave the room, let me say, in 2019, when I joined this parliament, those who are here already will remember that we were talking about Turkey, and pretty unanimously, the political groups were saying we cannot allow Erdogan to take us hostage on this. Sovereignty is important.
We can't allow migration and the borders to be a pretext for him taking us hostage. Now at that time, I didn't really understand the importance of that idea, but now I realized it was a good one. So what should we do? Well, the EU should refuse to be taken hostage by any regime on the pretext of migration issues. Now the commission and the EAS, even if I've heard some diplomatic comments, I would say that there's an element of irrationality in the Tunisian regime, and perhaps that's what did make it distinguished from the Moroccans and the Egyptians and what have you.
If I might, I would suggest you reply simply. You have to put down red lines. Once you've defined the red lines, you have to hold the red lines. Now, of course, it's not for my humble self to say what those red lines are, but I've got a few ideas. For example, a local operator working for an EU-funded project may not be persecuted or put in prison for doing their job.
Otherwise, it's EU sovereignty that is being undermined. We vote on things here. The budgets committee vote on the money to be allocated, and then people working on EU-funded projects are sentenced to years in prison. That should not be possible. That should be a red line, an absolute red line.
That's the first of them. The second red line. It's quite unacceptable that a unionist, a political opponent, or a member of civil society be met or put in prison for meeting EU staff or diplomats, because that's absurd. I mean, if you want to take that ad absurdum, then ministers would have to go to prison for the same reason. Our delegations would have to go to the prison.
So that too should be an EU red line. And it's quite out of the question that migrants be taken out and dumped in the desert with the money that we are sending to Tunisia. Okay. It values sovereignty. If he wants to do it on his own bat, well, he can do it with his own money.
We can't fund that. We can't be taken hostage by people on this issue, and we can't have our money paying for people to be dumped and left to die in the desert. I think I would suggest those three red lines to you, and I think certain rules do have to be set and stuck to. If he plays along, then fine. And if he doesn't play along, then we have to stop giving President Kade money.
I mean, you criticize me as much as you like, but if I see the opponent who stood against Mr. Case in the last elections being accused of falsifying nominations for the vote and then being sentenced to decades in prison, then I have to really ask myself what this regime really is all about. Now perhaps migration stands above everything else for some people, but let's be consistent. Let's stick to some principles and some rules, because in the name of humanity, we have to act. It's also about the EU's image when we talk about these issues. Thank you.
Speaker 26
So I'm going to take a one and a half-minute break while people take their seats for the coordinators meeting.
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