Committee on Foreign Affairs Ordinary meeting
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AFET European Parliament
Follow its sittingsDavid McAllister
Yes. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Doctor Ibadi. This is the European Parliament in Brussels, the Foreign Affairs Committee, and I will now give you the floor for roughly seven minutes, if that's okay. Please, madam.
You can speak now.
Shirin Ebadi
The national currency has devalued, and there is extreme poverty. There is extreme poverty in the country. And every day, poverty is increasing, and there is gross violation of human rights, and there is administrative corruption. The people in the capital and 400 other cities have come to the streets, they are chanting slogans. Going for yes.
That is correct.
Speaker 4
Okay. Many people were waiting for him to come to Iran, and this drew the ire of the regime. And on the command of the regime, the forces started attacking the people with lethal force. And the special rapporteur of the UN called it borderline with a crime against humanity. The number of those killed is not clear yet.
But as the media say, and also human rights organizations say, more than 40,000 people were killed. Among them, two, thirty students and 100.
Children. The number of those arrested from January is more than 40,000 people. And the major part of that pertains to those who have been accused of participating in the protests, collaborating with the enemy, spying and also spreading lies. During the same period of time, more than 160 people have been.
Executed. All these accusations have been carried out in camera and without access of the accused to representation by a lawyer. In order to understand the reputation in Iran better, I would like to remind you that during the 38 days of the military attack by Israel and The United States on the territory of Iran, the number of 3,753 people were killed. However, the Islamic Republic, only during two days during the protest of the month of January, killed tens of thousands, more than that. From January until yesterday, the regime has blacked out the Internet for more than 1100 hours.
During this time, the films and videos regarding the killing of the people and their arrests were transmitted via Sterling, which was allowed in Iran before. And because of this reason, the regime also said that having a Sterling is collaboration with the enemy, and the number of people were arrested in this regard. The blackout of the internet has inflicted serious damage on internet business. And according to the economic calculations, which have been made, the direct damages inflicted because of the blackout of the Internet is 30,000,000 to $40,000,000 per day. As said by UNICEF, the Islamic Republic in its war with the United States and Israel has also started recruiting children to mobilize people and also using them for inspection stations on the streets.
And at least in this regard, one child has been killed. And the last point is that those people who had criticized the performance of the government or in the Persian-speaking media outside of Iran were active, and also a number of the followers of the Bahai faith had their property expropriated. Recently, also, the names of 400 individuals were announced in this connection whose property has been expropriated. In conclusion, I deem it necessary to remind you that in all the cases that I talked about, human governments have closed their eyes to the crimes of the Islamic Republic. We are not responsible only for our actions and our statements, but we are also responsible for our silence and our omissions.
David McAllister
Thank you very much, Doctor. Ibadi, for your statement. Now I give the floor to Mr. Mustafa Houdry. The floor is yours for 7 minutes.
Welcome.
Speaker 9
I would like to first of all, not the chair. Can you hear me now? Yes. The problem, okay. Can we start?
First.
Mustafa Houdry
I would like to thank you for this opportunity, having invited at least a segment of the Iranian opposition to present their views from here, regarding the present and future of Iran. We would have liked representatives of other nations such as Turks, Arabs, Beluchis, Turkmen and many others to be here as well. But I hope this is a first step and that in future there are more opportunities for most parties to express their views. The reason I choose to address you in Kurdish language today, it comes from the fact that our language has been denied and officially not recognized for more than a century. This means our children have not been permitted to read and write in their mother tongue.
However, today I speak here in this language so that I may have a small part in the struggle for the official recognition of my nation and its language. Honorable guests, this is the third time that Iranians are striving to build democracy, meaning that the people within the geographical and political framework of Iran are in a continuous effort to reach freedom and liberation. Unfortunately, they have not succeeded until now. From the perspective of Kurdistan, and especially the Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan, there is a fundamental problem in Iran, a non-civil and monopolistic totalitarian state that has blocked the path to any form of freedom. In Iran, the state has deviated from a civil path twice.
Once after the constitutional revolution, where the monarchical system turned the state into a monopolistic totalitarian system, and most recently, since 1979, where the religious system turned the state into a tool for its own totalitarian and ideological rule. During the monarchical era, Persian identity used the state to erase all pluralism and impose only one identity, one language, one history, and one culture upon others to assimilate them. This is despite the fact that Iran is a country of multiple languages, identities, cultures, and histories. In 1979, Iranians rose up again with the hope of building a democratic system. However, this time the state was controlled by the Shiite religion of Velayate Fatih, in other words, guardianship of the Islamic jurist, which directed its efforts toward erasing the freedoms and pluralism within Iran.
Today, we see that the Iranian state is not only a threat to Iranians, but a threat to the entire world. Our model for Kurdistan is, above all else, the control of the state monopoly. Specifically, we want the state to be subordinate to the citizens, not the citizens subordinate to the state. Our mechanism is a democratic, federal, and secular system. In this system, power is not concentrated in one center, allowing the state's monopolistic, totalitarian nature to be controlled.
We see this as the only solution for building a democratic, free, and secular Iran, where the country belongs to all its inhabitants rather than one privileged group. In response to these demands, the monarchical regimes and the Islamic Republic that followed, to protect their totalitarianism and monopoly, have labeled these democratic and progressive demands as secessionism. Under this accusation, they have executed and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of people or forced them to leave their country under the pressure of repression, and become refugees abroad. This is while the experience of the developed world has shown that respecting differences and officially recognizing them doesn't lead to division of the country. On the contrary, it is the strongest tool for voluntary unity and the protection of the land and the homeland.
The unity of the country and their own regions. In this way, the unity of the land and homeland is realized when all diverse components participate in the administration of the country and of their own regions. In this way, the country becomes a home for all inhabitants rather than a single group occupying the entire country through repression and violence, and marginalizing others and depriving them of all their rights. Our movement is based on the human values and wishes, unlike the Pahlavi and Islamic Republic regimes, for all of Iran, including Kurdistan, to become a hub for stability and connection to the free world. Please remember that Kurdistan is the cradle of the woman life freedom movement.
These values are principal and fundamental mindsets for us, not just slogans. Our movement has defined itself within the framework of these values. Therefore, we do not think of oppression, instability or the absence of security. Rather, we strive to realize them unless they attempt once again to destroy us. In conclusion, on behalf of the coalition and especially on behalf of the Democratic Party of Iran, we thank you for this opportunity.
And if time permits, we can further clarify these areas if you have any questions. Thank you very much for listening and for your patience.
David McAllister
Mister Hedree, I now give the floor to mister Abdullah Mokhtadi, leader and secretary general of Kamala Party of Iranian Kurdistan. Please. Ladies.
Abdullah Mohtadi
And gentlemen, honorable members of the European Parliament, dear guests, first of all, thank you to the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Iran delegation for inviting us here today. The topic that brings us together, a free Iran, is incredibly important, not just for the people of Iran, but for the entire region and even the wider world. So thank you again for organizing this timely event. Today, when people talk about the Iranian regime, they often think of armed proxy groups, missiles, and drones targeting cities, businesses, hotels, refineries, and energy facilities, setting the entire region on fire and of its involvement in foreign wars. But the truth is the main victims of this regime have always been the people of Iran themselves.
Long before this regime ever fired a missile abroad, it declared war on its own people. It shut down the free press, banned labor unions, violently cracked down on women, and imposed severe restrictions on their lives. It launched attacks on Kurdistan without any provocation and without any justification, creating scenes of terrible violence. Universities were taken over by armed militias and turned into places of repression and bloodshed. Regions like Turkmen, Sahara, and Khuzestan were brutally suppressed.
Thousands of activists, political, civil, women, and even teenagers were arrested, tortured, and executed without any fair trial. In short, this regime's war against its own people started long before any conflict with the United States or Israel, and long before European cities became targets of its terrorist operations. We should also remember that the attack on Kurdistan happened even before the takeover of the US Embassy in Tehran. That is exactly why the issues of freedom in Iran is not in Iran must not be overshadowed by the clouds of war or pushed aside because of different opinions about the recent conflict or because of any criticism one might have of US policies. Supporting freedom in Iran, supporting people's movement for change, including their right to change the system, is what we truly expect from Europe.
So let's not keep complaining about the atrocities of the past, and concentrate on what a new free democratic Iran should look like. What we are looking for and what we have been fighting for is a democratic, pluralist, tolerant Iran where no one single social group, no one single ethnicity or religion or political trend to dominate the powers of the state impose a new exclusivity, and therefore a new dictatorship. What we need is a new constitution that respects diversity, pluralism, and inclusiveness, embraces power-sharing arrangements, and commits to the rule of law, equal citizenship, human rights, freedom and democracy, peace and development, and thus makes Iran a reliable and responsible member of the international community. A free democratic and pluralistic Iran, one that respects human rights and is built on a modern, forward-looking constitution that recognizes, among other things, the rights of Kurds and other nationalities in Iran, can also become a reliable partner for peace and global development. Long live freedom, thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you, Mr. Mohtadi. Now I give the floor to Mister Saeed Bashirtash, the leader of the political organization, the Seven Urban Front. Please.
Speaker 12
And gentlemen, mister chairman, I'm talking to you actually on behalf of the Iranian nation, representing the voice of the Iranian nation so that it reaches you, a historic nation, a very united nation with solidarity, so that is fighting for its freedom actually. Speaking on behalf of the people who have been actually, since the January killings, have been actually deprived of Internet access. The Estombe regime has actually embarked upon this Internet blackout so that behind closed doors, it continues to kill the people. With the call out of account players, Raza Pahlavi, millions of Ukrainians actually got to the streets on the eighteenth and nineteenth of the month. It actually, what happened, it paved the way for the historic killings and atrocities.
But actually, between 40,000 and 50,000 people were killed during that period. Even the injured people were kidnapped from hospitals, and they were killed. Over 100,000 people have been arrested, and they are actually being tortured under the most inhumane conditions. And with all this, the people of Iran, they haven't actually received any sort of solidarity and empathy that they deserve from the international community. The Iranians are actually demanding the most primary, actually, the human rights, dignity, human rights.
Those values are on the basis of human society. Western society has been built. The Iranian nation is actually the biggest partner of the free world in the Middle East. But at the same time, the Islamic regime is actually the biggest enemy of the Western world. Israel is actually within the reach of the Islamic regime's missiles.
Brussels is actually within the reach of the missiles of the regime, not only the Iranian nation, but also the civilization. It's an existential threat to the civilization of the West. In the same way that it has been mentioned in the preamble of the constitution of the Islamic Republic, it's actually looking to establish an Umbe, a global Umbe. It's actually the enemy of the Iranian nation, also of the Western world. But at the same time, unfortunately, people in Europe haven't realized this reality. And the latest war has actually been named, like has been attributed to the problem, the economic problems of Eastern Europe.
But it's actually the whole nature of the Islamic regime that is threatening the whole of Europe as a whole in the future. And also, it's the rogueness of the regime that is threatening everything. The Islamic regime on its own, more than any more than all terrorist activities terrorist organizations combined, have actually carried out terrorist activities within Europe. Its efforts and endeavors to actually acquire nuclear weapons is actually a very serious threat to the security of Europe. Its assistance to the Russian regime in the Ukraine war is actually threatening very directly the security of Europe.
It has actually imposed insecurity on the whole region of the Middle East, and its Hitler style kind of regime has been actually at war with all its neighboring countries, including the nine countries that were attacked actually in the latest episode of war. Europe actually has been also threatened by the refugees from Syria, from Afghanistan, also the insecurity of shipping in Bab El Mandeb and the Red Sea, and also the insecurities that have been actually promoted by the regime inside the region. In the 1939 Day War, actually, we have never been witnessing a rise in the refugees from Iran because Iranians are aspiring for the collapse of this regime and reaching the freedom that they would like to have for their nation. Actually, the nightmare is the survival of this regime. If this nightmare materializes, then of course, there will be millions of Iranians who will become refugees and come to Europe.
And also the continuation of this regime after the January massacre, that will also be the defeat of a discourse of democracy in the world. Because if this kind of atrocity is left without actually response, then dictators are going to embark upon more massacres of this kind in the future. Their representatives, Iran actually has the second largest reserves of gas and the fourth largest actual reserve for oil, and also possesses very large educated cadres. And also the, but only the level of trade, the volume of trade between Europe and Iran is actually only $5,000,000,000. But with the collapse of the Islamic regime, it will pave the way for actually thousands of billions of dollars, trillions of dollars. And Iran can actually turn into a machine of development for Europe.
And also, it ensures energy for the continent of Europe. Iran is also one of the most ancient nations and civilizations in the world. In 1906, we had the constitutional movement, actually. And it was actually one of the initial, one of the primary experiences of democratization and seeking democracy in that part of the world. And now we actually, people want the collapse of this regime and are aspiring for a liberal democracy.
And the Iranian nation has paid a lot of prices for getting freedom of democracy. Over the last four years, we have had four waves of movement of democracy. And Woman Life Freedom, and also before that, the two previous waves of freedom seeking, and also the January wave. And the interaction between there's not any interaction now happening between the Iranian nation and the Iranian regime. And the Iranian nation does not want anything else apart from the collapse of this regime.
This is a reality that the world should understand. The people of Iran have never been disunited with this kind of solidarity after the massacre of January. This kind of a united spirit has actually strengthened the thousands of years of civilizational spirit amongst Iranians, millions of Iranians from across the country from Khermorenshav, the Kurdish city, and also to Masha, the largest city of Kherson in the East, from Tabriz to Russia in the North to Boucher in the shores of the Persian Gulf, got to the streets and mentioned the name of their leader, Crown Prince Azerbaijan Palaevi. Today, I'm here actually at the European Parliament so that I become the voice of the Iranian people. On behalf of the Iranian people and also the Samantha Obon front.
And I would like to actually ask you to recognize the will of the people for democracy, for seeking democracy. We'd like you to evict the Iranian ambassadors from Europe and also recognize the movement led by Ruzopah Levy and to also support the victory of the Iranian people, victory of Europe, and also victim of the world and also humanity. Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you, sir. And now I give the floor to the artist and journalist, Miss Sanas Fizadi, who works with the Association for the Promotion of Open Society on Iran. The floor is yours, madam.
Sanaz Behzadi
The coincidence of this event with the Holocaust Remembrance Day recalls a crime in which millions of Jews were brutally murdered. It also compels us to remember the Iranian victims of what we call the Iranian Holocaust. Victims of horror, massacre, terror, and execution, not only in the past three months, but over the past 47 years from every ethnicity, from every city, and every corner of the country. So I would like to propose a moment of silence for both the Jewish victims of the Holocaust and the Iranian victims of this ongoing tragedy. A moment of silence for Nika, for Seferre Baba, and for thousands of other innocent people from Abbas Sehovaida to Feridunef Farooqsat. Dear everyone, I appreciate the opportunity to address one of the key challenges of European foreign policy.
My name is Sanaz Behzadi. I represent the Association for the Promotion of Open Society, an institution active in the fields of democratic transition, civil society development, good governance, and policy dialogue on Iran. Let me be clear from this outset. The discussion is not only about Iran. It is directly linked to Europe's strategic interests, its energy security, and its role in shaping one of the most sensitive geopolitical transitions of our time.
Speaker 14
What is unfolding in Iran today is not a temporary crisis, but the convergence of three deep, accelerating trends. First, the widespread collapse of the political legitimacy of the Islamic Republic, a reality clearly reflected in the continuation of protests, reports by independent institutions, and the regime's increasingly defensive reactions. The repression has not been merely political. Over the past 47 years, patterns of inequality and discrimination in Iran have been driven less by purely ethnic targeting and more by structural factors, namely unaccountable governance, rent seeking resource allocation, uneven regional development, and systematic political exclusion, structures that without institutional reform will continue to reproduce themselves. Second, the escalation of military tensions in the region, with a real risk of expanding into a transregional conflict.
Speaker 15
And third, an issue that's received not enough attention in policy discourse: the question of transition in Iran is no longer a distant prospect. It is a present reality. The question is no longer whether change will occur, but what form it will take, and whether we are prepared for it. These trends taken together have turned Iran into a critical node in the global security and economy, with direct implications for Europe, of course. Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to highlight a geopolitical reality.
Speaker 14
The Strait of Hormuz is not merely a regional waterway. It is the most vital choke point in the global energy infrastructure. Around 20% of the world's oil trade passes through it daily, a significant portion of which reaches Europe. The Islamic Republic has repeatedly threatened to block this route. And under escalating crisis conditions, this threat is no longer hypothetical.
Speaker 15
Its consequences for Europe are clear: energy price spikes, inflationary pressure, and so on. Yet the reality also has another dimension. A stable and democratic Iran would not use this position as leverage, but could instead become a reliable partner for Europe's energy security and regional stability. This is not idealism, but a clear definition of strategic interest. We are not here merely to describe a crisis, but to present a practical path forward.
A real win-win scenario exists already, rooted in a structured transition framework designed by a team of capable Iranians. The Iran Prosperity Project, IPP, led by Prince Beza Pahlavi, is not an abstract proposal, but a phased roadmap for political transition focused on fundamental reforms, preventing a power vacuum, and establishing a democratic government. In any transition process, having a unifying political center is crucial. Today, initiatives around the leadership of Prince Reza Pahlavi have been able to create part of this capacity. Alongside this, transitional justice is decisive.
Speaker 14
The Islamic regime in Iran faces a heavy record of human rights violations. And without accountability mechanisms, any transition risks descending into cycles of revenge. For this reason, efforts are underway by a committee under the leadership of Shirin Ebody. Within the same project, the project team designed mechanisms for the truth setting for accountability and social reconciliation, with the aim of balancing justice and stability. History shows that without this balance, a sustainable transition is not achievable.
Speaker 15
Ladies and gentlemen, within this framework, a contradiction must also be addressed. The continued operation of Islamic Republic embassies in Europe, while the same unaccountable structures are the source of the crisis, is not aligned with democratic objectives. A reassessment of this approach could form part of a more coherent value-based policy. We, Iranians living in Europe, consider it our home. And we see it as the home of our children.
We see the future of our children here. For this reason, we speak to you today both as Iranians and as European citizens. The European Union's approach has so far been largely cautious and reactive. But given the pace of development, this approach is at risk of missing a decisive moment. Therefore, three concrete steps are recommended.
First, revising Europe's diplomatic tools, shifting from crisis management towards preparations for transition scenarios. Second, establishing structured dialogue with civil society and responsible opposition actors, particularly those committed to nonviolent institutional approaches, the ones who speak for everyone in Iran, not any specific group. And third, taking a more active role in shaping the international conversation on Iran's future before even reducing Europe to a purely reactive position. Dear everyone, Iran is entering one of the most consequential turning points in its modern history. How this transition is managed will affect not only millions of us, Iranians, but also regional stability, Europe's energy security, and the credibility of the international community.
What is required now is an accurate understanding of realities, readiness for multiple scenarios, and the political will to act decisively and responsibly. Miss Pinalli,
Speaker 15
Yes. This window is still open. The Association of the Promotion of Open Society stands ready to contribute through analysis, facilitation, and engagement of the Iranian civil society, the facilitation of dialogue, and engagement with Iranian civil society. A win-win outcome is possible, but only with timely action. Thank you for listening.
I talk too much.
David McAllister
Thank you very much to all our speakers. I will now open the floor for questions and comments, starting with representatives of the political groups. It's two minutes each. And for the EPP, Mihir Gala.
Speaker 18
Thank you very much to all who have contributed to this session. I think there is a broad consensus here in the house that the Iranian people deserve better. They deserve to live in a democratic state, in a state where every citizen is respected, has his and her rights, fully granted, and where the diversity of the society and of the nation is also duly reflected. And so far, I hope that those who are like-minded in this sense find common ground. And that is, of course, the challenge, and also a question.
Speaker 21
I would wish, and that is a question to all of you, that you could with the common goal of overcoming the Muller regime, whether you can find enough patience, enough openness, to tolerate yourselves amongst yourselves and, so to say, see the higher common goal as a fundament to work together. So far, I would like to hear whether those of you who are here and beyond, of course, are willing and able to seek dialogue. And the question is, of course, for us, can we facilitate such a dialogue? That is the one thing. The other thing is the question whether this current war from the US and Israel against the regime.
Speaker 18
My fear is that to an extent they bomb the people back to the regime. Is that a legitimate fear? Is that a point where the regime could profit from the current situation that more people would, so to say, rejoin accepting the regime, for a while if only the war ends. And my last it's over. Well, I'm stopping there.
Speaker 22
First guest talked about the big conflicts. So you have the war and then the conflict of the regime against its own people. And I think we should offer a platform of hope for the opposition forces working outside of the country. We don't want to specifically support one side over another. We want to support everyone who is ensuring that the Iranians can look after themselves.
But I think there is also a third conflict, while it is true that as regards public opinion about what's happening to Iranians abroad, there is an obstacle from the about how the Mueller regime can be overturned, and there are continuous accusations made by one side against the other. For the moment, there is no possibility to change the situation, and we are seeing where there are accusations being levied one against the other, and this doesn't create the possibility for a space of hope. There is the Freedom Congress, the IPP, was referred to. There are a number of opportunities. We know it's difficult, but try to cooperate, try to find platforms, shared platforms among yourselves, because otherwise, all of our support to create platforms will just create further exclusion among yourselves.
Speaker 23
So, really, we need to create hope for the people of Iran. But I would like to know your opinion about the conflicts in Iran. The situation was different at the beginning, but now I would like to know what is your opinion about whether or not the war as is taking place, whether it will be useful or not for a change of regime in the country. Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you, Natural. Who would like to take the floor for the PFE Group? No request. Then for the ECR, Sebastian Tinkinen.
Speaker 24
Thank you, chair. Since we have freedom of speech, I will say the following. I regret that we are witnessing this moment. Reza Pahlavi's name is the only one being shouted in the protests organized by Iranians across Europe. For this reason, I requested that we invite him to address the European Parliament in a plenary session.
The majority of the Parliament did not support that proposal, so hearing the voice of the Iranian people was downgraded to a committee-level hearing. Following the coordinator's decision, it became clear that Baghlabi could not participate due to prior commitments. Nevertheless, this meeting is still taking place, and I now hear Reza Baghlabi being criticized on the panel in his absence. I wonder whether this is what Iranians expected when we told them we would listen to their voices. I truly respect the presence and time of all the participants here today, because a multi-party democracy requires a diverse opposition.
Speaker 26
However, I deeply regret the signal we are sending today to the majority of the Iranian people. If anything, this hearing is not balanced, and we all know it. Thank you.
Sanaz Behzadi
Sorry. But I didn't get your question. So it was more description, but not a question.
There was no question. It was a comment.
David McAllister
Miss Binadi, I'm chairing this meeting, if that's okay with you. Look, Sebastian, I don't want to comment on what you just said, but it's not 100% factually correct. What you just said, I mean, with all due respect, you know exactly that we agreed among coordinators to organize this hearing. Proposals were made about who was supposed to be invited. The groups made proposals, and then we sent out invitations.
And some accepted, others, due to prior commitments, couldn't come. Just that we get it right. And I don't think that was 100% there, what you just said, because this is not how it was organized. Now next is for the Renew Group, who? Marie Agnusz Schack-Zimmerman.
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann
Thank you, chair. For decades, Iranians have been oppressed by a ruthless regime that grants its people hardly any freedom, a regime that murders Iranians simply for wanting to live in freedom, a regime that finances terrorist groups and proxies across the Middle East, a regime that supplies Russia with weapons in its war against Ukraine, affecting Europe's security directly. A regime developing nuclear capabilities and ballistic missiles with a range that reach Europe itself. A regime that intimidates Iran's living rights here on European soil. So for decades, we tried diplomacy.
We applied pressure with limited results. Yet while the territory remains under certain, one principle remains clear: the future of Iran must be determined by its own people, and I'm therefore grateful that we are joined today by voices that represent the broadest diversity and courage of the Iranian people. On the sixteenth March, Reza Pavlovi announced a transitional justice framework under the Iran Prosperity Project. So, Miss Abadi, you have spent decades defending human rights in Iran at significant personal costs, and you have now been appointed chair of this transition committee. I would therefore like to ask you two questions.
First, where does the committee work stand today? What has been achieved already? And what are the next steps? And second, what do you need from the European Union? Thank you very much.
David McAllister
Thank you. Now for the Greens, I give the floor to Thomas Weitz, please.
Thomas Waitz
Thank you, chair, and thanks to all of you for coming and sharing with us. The part of the assessment that we just heard from colleague Strack Simoman, I can totally share, and I spare that in my intervention. I must say I'm a bit irritated about the name Reza Para Levi, described as a prince. I think Iranian people shall decide in elections about who leads them, and we shouldn't even give the impression that we suggest to return to a monarchy. But that's maybe just my personal irritation.
I have a very concrete question. I mean, this regime was only able to uphold its power because of economic power. These economic powers very much resulting in the export of fossil fuels. I don't think it's a positive outlook for the European Union to even increase our dependency on fossil fuels wherever they come from. So I don't think this is part of a win-win situation.
We shall get rid of our dependency on fossil fuels wherever they come from. But my concrete question is economically, the revolutionary guards are much more than a militia or part of the army or a security service, but they are an enormous and they hold enormous economic power in Iran and beyond Iran. Also, in many of our European states, there are companies that have links to the revolutionary guards, that have links to Iranian companies that are circumventing the sanctions that are circumventing restrictions. What is your impression? Are we, on the European Union side, doing enough to investigate, to go after dubious money streams, to go after dubious companies, investments into real estate, and so on.
Do you think this is sufficient, or is there more work to do? Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you, Thomas. For the left, Danilo de la Valle. No. Marc Bottenga, please.
Marc Bottenga
Thank you very much, Chair, and thanks to all the guests for their input. Maybe just as you know, I don't consider that the West's policy in the Middle East has been one of promoting human rights and democracy. It's been mostly about oil and gas, and this is why we have been so strongly criticizing all human rights violations in Iran but have looked away when the Saudis executed hundreds or are much less critical of the fact that countries like the Emirates or Qatar have no democracy. And let me not even start on our complicity with Israeli crimes. It is about oil and gas, and I think one example of that has been also recently when we hear the EU representatives unable to condemn the mass massacre of the Mina Girls School, you know, that's bombed by the US allies.
Speaker 30
We're unable as the European Union to clearly condemn that or even condemn the war, the US Israeli war against Iran, which clearly shows double standards. Russia attacks Ukraine. We condemn. United States. Attack Israel.
Attack Iran. We do not condemn. I have some concrete questions in this regard on the future of Iran you have. First, I'm not sure if you've all condemned, expressed empathy with the victims of the Minab Girls' School, but I wanna ask very concretely to our Kurdish invitees. You are often accused of wanting to cut a piece of Iran.
Is that true, or is your model more something like the autonomy we now see in Iraq, Syria, in that kind of what is your model? I mean, Syria is obviously also in chaos. Iraq doesn't really exist anymore, centralized government-wise. To Missus Ehbadi, there were hundreds of civil rights activists, human rights activists recently calling for the withdrawal, the revoke of your Nobel Prize because you called for military intervention in Iran. Now recently, I heard you say that bombs will not get rid of the Ayatollahs.
Speaker 35
What is your position exactly, in favor or against war? Mister Bashi Atash, you participated in demonstrations with Israeli flags. The Israeli regime has killed tens of thousands of children throughout the region. Is this a model you support? Or, because in that case, I'm not sure where you stand on human rights.
Speaker 32
So I would like you to clarify this. Because if we really want the sovereignty and popular sovereignty of the Iranian people, we need to be clear about the values first. Thank you.
David McAllister
Alright. Thank you. For the ESN group, no request to take the floor. Then I now give the floor to Lukas Fuhlas, Afton's standing rapporteur on Iran. Please.
Lukas Fuhlas
Thank you, chair. Thank you, chair. I would like to say a few words on the subject as the standing rapporteur for Iran. We stand with the people of Iran, closely following the conflict and the developments. This is not a situation that we started, but we cannot remain passive when something so serious is happening.
Speaker 33
From the very first moment in my role as standing reporter, I have been in contact with those involved. What is needed now is a clear and common strategy, a plan with direction and purpose. Let.
Speaker 36
Be clear. The Iranian people will decide about their future. No one else. We stand with the people of Iran, not only in votes, but in commitment. The Iranian people deserve a future with freedom.
Speaker 33
They deserve dignity, justice, and respect for their rights. I will continue to listen, to act, and to support the people of Iran for the next three years in my role as a reporter. I will remain available and engaged. The next day in Iran must be built on this foundation, a country open to its people, a country where voices are not silenced, a country that looks to the future with hope. This is not only a regional issue. It is a matter of values, and we must stand firm.
Thank you very much.
David McAllister
Thank you very much, Luca. I now give the floor to other members who would like to speak. At the moment, we have on our list for the EPP, Juliana Zofko. Then we have Andrei Kovacev. We have from the S and D, Daniel Atar.
And we have none in screen, Mister Brown and Miss Sorrell. Inch here. Who else? Delevale. Mister Delevale?
Okay. That's 1,234,567 speakers. I would like to ask you to, well, one and a half minutes perhaps, that should be possible. And we kick off with Miss Sofko.
Željana Zovko
Well, thank you very much. Just I will follow-up for what my colleague have said already. It seems to me that we don't have a full representation of the opposition here. But, nevertheless, is there, if I would like to ask the chair to give us also the information. Is it there any possibility to organize a separate hearing or a new hearing with the leader of the main wave of the opposition as well, so to have a full picture.
But, nevertheless, we have to rely on the fact that the opposition that we like to listen to here understands what this parliament has done in the last few decades with the resolutions on the respect of human rights and the breaches of human rights in Iran. So this should not be forgotten in this cacophony of the military actions that are taking place. And can you just give me the answer? How was the, you know, this women rights and the attack of women in Iran? How was that treated?
Was there any discussions about among the oppositions and how on the consequences of that, because we haven't heard a lot on in a recent times on that. So can you give us the answer? Because sometimes we can support somebody who can turn out to be the same thing. It's just in a different package. Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you. And now I give the floor to Mister Atar, who's also the vice chair of the delegation.
Daniel Atar
Thank you, chair, and thank you to the people who have come to this parliament to address this subcommittee, which is not a lower level, but it is an institutional body, an important one, in this parliament. And I thank you for being here. It's a privilege to be here in this room, as I told you earlier today, because while we deliver speeches in the chamber, from the comfort of the chamber in Strasbourg, you are fighting on the ground to bring about change in Iran, change for the people of Iran, the wide spectrum of the people of Iran. And our role is simply to support you in your struggle. Your struggle is our struggle.
Speaker 40
Your fight is our fight. It's not just Western values, as I said earlier, and then other opportunities. The respect for human rights, equality, freedom of expression, and freedom of thought. These are all common human values, our values, and we will continue to support you. And my question is a genuine, not political, one.
There have been a lot of questions raised about the military operation. We have found ourselves in a very delicate and sensitive situation whereby, on one hand, we are against foreign military intervention. There is no doubt about my position on that. But on the other hand, we have heard people saying that that this military operation gave hope to the people of Iran. It gave them the best chance to topple the regime.
Daniel Atar
I want to hear your position on this. What is your opinion on this military operation? Thank you.
Andrei Kovacev
Thank you very much, chair. The representative of different opposition groups to this horrible regime in Tehran, which caused so much damage and so much trouble for the whole world, but especially for the Iranian people. We would like to express my full solidarity with the people of Iran, and the future and destiny of Iran is in your hands, in the hands of all Iranian people, and not in the hands of us or of our political orientations. But we would like only to hear from you how we can help you, what kind of platform we can build for you, what we can do. And our really real call is that please unite for the, how Michel Garard mentioned, for the biggest value, which is the change of the regime and the democratic secular future of your great country. You need to unite.
Speaker 41
You must unite to have a united front against this terrible regime. Please, I know that you come from different backgrounds and then you have memories of the past, and then some of you don't like monarchy, some of you like, doesn't matter. This, for the moment, much more important is the change of the regime, and I'm very unhappy with some member states of the European Union, which they say we can continue with this regime or that we are not aiming regime change. Yes. This is the seek of the people of Iran that a regime change needs to be done, and we are here to hear how we can help you with this regime change.
If you are divided, then there is indeed no hope. And, again, the question about the war in Iran, which is by the United States and Israel, is it something which can help or, on the opposite, will be difficult for the regime change?
Evin Incir
Thank you very much, Yves. And thanks to the guests for being here with us today. I want to, as my colleagues have already done also, show solidarity with all the people in Iran, all parts of the society. And, of course, it is not up to us here in the European Parliament to decide who is going to lead the opposition in Iran. What we do, as I've heard that everybody at the stage have asked for also, is to bring together the opposition, not decide that one day we should have some part of it, the other day we should name one person as the leader of the opposition.
It's not up to us. And what is being chanted on the streets in the European Union or in Iran, I believe that some have expressed that some names are only being chanted, which is not fully correct because there are other things that also have been chanted. With this said, we need to go from showing solidarity to also take action. Here, it is important to hear from you what we can concretely do from the side of the European Parliament and from the side of the European Union. Of course, we do not want to see a divided Iran.
We want to see an Iran that encompasses the whole Persian population. We don't want to see the country end up in the same situation as Syria is, where some part of the society do not know if they will be granted their fundamental rights or not. Here, we as the European Union have a responsibility. And finally, also, I'm a bit curious to know what is your view on the actions of Israel and US. Thank you very much.
Danilo Della Valle
It's.
Wonderful to hear from you and to see you face to face. I know that you are working very hard. We should also spare a thought for those who are seeking democracy and humanitarian aims and those who are the victims of bombings. I think the EU has lost credibility because of its double standards in, for instance, the way it reacted to Ukraine and the way it reacted to the Israeli genocide in Gaza. Now we see military aggression against Lebanon and Iran, and the EU is going from a loss of credibility to a ridiculous image now.
The US bombs on the Minah school, and we say that there's an ancient history, a wonderful people in Iran, and that the solutions for Iran should be in the hands of the people themselves, not bringing back the monarchy, not bringing back a shah sponsored by Washington or Brussels. And my question to our guests would be, what do you think of the US and Israeli bombings of Iran? Do you condemn them? What do you think about a possible Syria-style scenario for Iran?
Mr. Brown.
Nathaniel Brown
God bless the Iranian people. I'm very grateful for the contribution that Persia has in the world's history, and that is why I don't personally feel authorized to conspire against or for any regimes, any authorities over there. And I'm a member of this parliament and this commission, for a relatively very short period of time, nearly two years. And I can observe that every month or two, you propose such a conspiracy here. Every month or two, you are debating some regime overthrow.
Speaker 50
You are debating restoring democracy here or there, and I refuse this offer. I don't want my nation, my country, my state to be engaged in such matters. The only regime I would really love to contribute to overthrowing is this regime, this Euro Co-host European superstate regime. Obviously, I want to contribute to some good change of government in my country, but I refuse to conspire against any authorities in Tehran, and I do not recommend any of you to take part in such actions. Next
Is Miss Sorel, please.
Speaker 3
I ask whether you have any suggestions for us. Any alternatives to sanctions? What we have seen is that sanctions fail. I would oppose them. The people tend to suffer, not the leaders.
So, do you have any examples for us? Do you believe that there is any rallying around the flag effect in Iran? In other words, under intense bombing campaigns carried out by Trump and Netanyahu, can you see the strengthening of the Iranian regime, which would be exactly the opposite of what we seek to achieve? Now one of the speakers talked about a model similar to that in Lebanon. Now, we have seen destruction in Lebanon and division between the different religions there.
Another point, some of our colleagues need to learn what democracy is before conflict broke up. I heard from Iranians. They did not want the West to be interfering, given what had happened with the Ayatollah. At the time, they talked about Reza Pahlavi, and they said that Reza Pahlavi seemed to be Trump and Netanyahu's candidate. If that is the case, then, well, that would speak volumes for them.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Right. Thank you. I can now give the floor back to each of our speakers for replies. I would suggest try to limit yourself to three, four minutes each, four minutes maximum. And the first would be Miss Ibadi.
Shirin Ebadi
Mr. President, thank you very much. Allow me to tell you one thing. When we talk about Rizal Pahlavi, we have to remember that he is the son of a shah, of a king. Well, you are the son of a king, you say, prince.
I don't know why this is such a problem. This is very understandable and this is a point which is understandable. And I don't understand why it would make the honorable member of the European Parliament angry. He is a prince. He was the son of a shah.
He's a prince. And the other thing is whether he is a candidate of Israel and the United States. Well, Mr. Pahlavi has time and again emphasized that they are not the enemy of any country, quite contrary to the Islamic Republic, that from the very first day said that its foreign policy is based on the destruction of Israel. And all the policies have been along those lines.
And that has caused all our budget to go to proxies and the military equipment. And the person who is asking this question and is concerned that Israel might support the princess of Pahlavi, I would like to throw back a question at this person. The duty of the destruction of Israel, by whom was it given to the Islamic Republic for which we have spent 47 years of our budget? In that respect, we do not have a common border with Israel. Why is it that the Islamic Republic has spent all its plans and programs for 47 years in order to destroy Israel?
Speaker 3
Now, we have seen destruction in Lebanon and division between the different religions there. Another point, some of our colleagues need to learn that well, is democracy before conflict broke out? I heard from Iranians.
Shirin Ebadi
Regarding what can be done and what expectations we have from Europe, I would like to say the following. After the war in Ukraine started, the property of those affiliated with Putin, his relatives, and his family was expropriated. You can do the same thing now. You can refuse to help the survival of the regime. We do not forget that when in the court in Stockholm, a criminal was condemned to life imprisonment.
Speaker 3
They did not want the West to be interfering, given what had happened with the Ayatollah. At the time they talked about Reza Pahlavi, and they said that Reza Pahlavi seemed to be Trump and Netanyahu's candidate. If that is the case, then, well, that would speak volumes for them.
Shirin Ebadi
You quickly exchanged it and bartered it for a hostage. And we do not forget that also here in Belgium, there was a terrorist diplomat who had been arrested while carrying explosives and had been condemned to 20 years in prison. You bartered it with Iran, and he was welcomed with flowers, and he is now one of the diplomats in Europe. I have a lot of examples to give you and to show you that Europe closes its eyes to the crimes that are committed against the people of Iran by the Islamic Republic. You have closed your eyes to that.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you. I can now give the floor back to each of our speakers for replies. I would suggest try to limit yourself to three, four minutes each, four minutes maximum.
And the first would be Miss Ibadi. I hope you're still connected.
Shirin Ebadi
And Mr. President, thank you very much. Allow me to tell you one thing. When we talk about results Pahlavi, we have to remember that he is the son of a shah, of a king.
And my request is that your actions should not be limited to having meetings, to hear what we have to say, and then still do business as usual and continue the same as you have been. Why is it that you do not recall the European ambassadors? Why is it that you want to expel Iranian diplomats from your country? You can reduce the activities of the embassies to chargé d'affaires, and it will show to the government of Iran that the European Union cares for the people of Iran and pays attention to the people of Iran. A question was addressed to me why it is that I'm not paying attention to the children in Please go and refer to what I have written, to my actions, to my work, how much I have talked about and I have written about the children in Minor, how much work I have done.
You are the son of a king, you say, prince. I don't know why this is such a problem. This is very understandable and this is a point which is understandable.
And I don't understand why it would make the honorable member of the European Parliament angry. He is a prince. He was the son of a shah, he's a prince. And the other thing is whether he is a candidate of Israel and the United States.
Well, is our Pahlavi has time and again emphasized that they are not the enemy of any country, quite contrary to the Islamic Republic that from the very first day said that its foreign policy is based on the destruction of Israel, and all the policies have been along that line. And that has caused all our budget to go to proxies and the military equipment.
And the person who is asking this question is concerned that Israel might support the Princess of Pahlavi, I would like to throw back a question at this person. The duty of the destruction of Israel by whom was it given to the Islamic Republic for which we have spent 47 years of our budget. In that respect, we do not have a common border with Israel.
Speaker 4
If I did not right now refer to them because I was given only seven minutes, and during the seven minutes which were given to me, I focused on the violations of human rights only during the last four months. Look, during four months only, all this has happened to the people of Iran. And still, you are afraid that Iran will become another Syria? Have you forgotten that the protection of Bashar al-Assad by Iran brought about the catastrophe there? I am so surprised to hear what you're saying.
Shirin Ebadi
Why is it that the Islamic Republic has spent all its plans and programs for 47 years in order to destroy Israel. Regarding what can be done and what expectations we have from Europe, I would like to say the following.
The news of Iran, why don't you study the news from Iran to understand what is really happening there? And when we talk, your biggest concern is why there is a division and dispute between us Iranians. Contrary to what you think, we are all united about one single thing, and that is a very important thing. We believe that the Islamic Republic should go. And instead of it, a democratic regime should come.
After the war in Ukraine started, the property of those affiliated with Putin, his relatives, and his family was expropriated. You can do the same thing now. You can refuse to help the survival of the regime.
We do not forget that when in the court in Stockholm, a criminal was condemned to life imprisonment. You quickly exchanged it and bartered it for a hostage. And we do not forget that also here, in Belgium, there was a terrorist diplomat who had been arrested while carrying explosives and had been condemned to 20 years in prison, you bartered it with Iran, and he was welcomed with flowers, and he is now one of the diplomats in Europe right now.
David McAllister
Thank you very much for your contribution. Thank you very much. And now.
Shirin Ebadi
I have a lot of examples to give you and to show you that Europe closes its eyes to the crimes which are committed against the people of Iran by the Islamic Republic.
Mustafa Houdry
You are asking us to unite to oppose the regime in Iran. In Kurdistan, we have 6 parties. We have united around a common cause, and we are working with 12 other parties in Iran. We have had allies for years. We have been cooperating.
Shirin Ebadi
You have closed your eyes on that. And my request is that your actions should not be limited to have meetings, to hear what we have to say. And then still do business as usual, and continue the same as you have been.
Mustafa Houdry
We are working to claim back the rights that the Islamic regime in Iran has deprived us of. To strengthen our efforts, we need support from the European Union. The European Union can help us in this regard. Help us to foster closer ties, to build an alternative on the US array Israeli attacks on Iran. We were told that perhaps these attacks might drive people back to the Iranian regime to rally around the flag. Well, then I would ask people, are you willing to accept anything to support this regime?
Shirin Ebadi
Why is it that you do not recall European ambassadors? Why is it that you want to expel Iranian diplomats from your embassy? You can reduce the activities of the embassies to a minimum, and it will show to the government of Iran that the European Union cares for the people of Iran and pays attention to the people of Iran.
A question was addressed to me: why it is that I'm not paying attention to the children in MENA. Please go and refer to what I have written about my actions, to my work, how much I have talked about and I have written about the children in Minor, how much work I have done. If I did not right now refer to them because I was given only seven minutes, and during the seven minutes which were given to me, I focused on the violations of human rights only during the last 4 months. Look, during four months only, all this has happened to the people of Iran.
Shirin Ebadi
And still, you are afraid that Iran will become another Syria. Have you forgotten that the protection of Bashar al-Assad by Iran brought about the catastrophe there? I am so glad to hear what you're saying.
Mustafa Houdry
Over forty years, the U. S. And Europe has sought to change the policies of this regime. But from day one, nothing has changed. The Iranian regime has not budged.
Shirin Ebadi
The news of Iran, why don't you study the news from Iran to see what is really happening there? And when we talk, your biggest concern is why there is a division between us Iranians. Contrary to what you think, we are all united about one single thing. And that is a very important thing.
Mustafa Houdry
Has there been any reduction in the terrorism risk? Many efforts have been undertaken. We in Kurdistan agreed from the very start that we would push for our rights. But the Iranian regime refused to work with us. They established terrorist organizations and declared jihad.
Shirin Ebadi
We believe that the Islamic Republic should go. And instead of it, a democratic regime should come.
Mustafa Houdry
And. Now no.
The Islamic regime called for negotiations with us. Our representative went to Vienna, sat down with Iranian regime representatives to seek peaceful negotiations, but they continued terrorist attacks and murder. The regime has constantly persecuted the Iranian people. They do not show any understanding of human rights and international law. They do not understand such language.
You are asking us to unite to oppose the regime in Iran in Kurdistan. We have six parties. We have united around a common cause, and we are working with 12 other parties in Iran. We have had allies for years. We have been cooperating. We are working to claim back the rights that the Islamic regime in Iran has deprived us of.
To strengthen our efforts, we need support from the European Union. The EU can help us in this regard. Help us foster closer ties.
To build an alternative. On. The U. S.-Israeli attacks on Iran, we were told that perhaps these attacks might drive people back to the Iranian regime to rally around the flag. Well, then I would ask people, are you willing to accept anything to support this regime? There are always drawbacks to any war.
It is not enough to condemn the actions of the Islamic regime. Europe must do more. Indeed, Europe needs to safeguard its own security to protect itself against terrorist attacks. And for this reason, it must cooperate with the people of Iran to defeat the current regime. The regime may be weakened, but it will wish to continue its ideology.
It will not budge an inch. That is why we believe that the people should support any efforts to take action to defeat the regime, to ease the pressure on the Iranian people. It would be helpful to find a solution together with the US and with the Iranian opposition forces to defeat the regime. Thank you.
But for over 40 years, the U. S. And Europe has sought to change the policies of this regime. But from day one, nothing has changed. The Iranian regime has not budged.
Has there been any reduction in the terrorism risk? Many efforts have been undertaken. We in Kurdistan agreed from the very start that we would push for our right. But the Iranian regime refused to work with us. They established terrorist organizations and declared jihad.
Abdullah Mohtadi
For the people rallying around the flag, this is not definitely, this is not the case in Kurdistan, in Kurdish areas, but I haven't seen any such things in the whole of Iran. So I think this is more of a myth than a reality. The second thing is what Europe can do as far as Iran is concerned. Two things. Two ranges of things.
One, putting more pressure, adopting a tougher policy, a tougher stance against the Iranian regime, be it economically, politically, or diplomatically. Second, help the Iranian opposition, getting united, facilitating this, facilitating the dialogue, providing forums for that. And I dare say that please find, however, you might have some differences with The United States, find ways as far as Iran is concerned. Find ways to cooperate with them to have them engaged also in this effort. We in Kurdistan have decided have managed to get united.
Mustafa Houdry
The Islamic regime called for negotiations with us. Our representative went to Vienna, sat down with Iranian regime representatives to seek peaceful negotiations, but they continued terrorist attacks and murder. The regime has constantly oppressed Iranian people.
They. Do not show any understanding of human rights and international law. They do not understand such language.
Abdullah Mohtadi
We have now an alliance of Kurdistan Iranian Kurdistan political parties. We also, as Kurds, can play an important role, a significant role in getting the Iranian opposition united. We are committed to that, and we will be partners for that. That is why I ask the European Union and this committee to work on helping, assisting, facilitating unification of the Iranian democratic opposition. Thank you.
Mustafa Houdry
It. It is not enough to condemn the actions of the Islamic regime.
Europe. Must do more. Indeed, Europe needs to safeguard its own security to protect itself against terrorist attacks. And for this reason, it must cooperate with the people of Iran to defeat the current regime. The regime may be weakened, but it will wish to continue its ideology.
Speaker 12
One question was about unity of the opposition forces. First of all, in the past 47 years, I have never seen so much unity among Iranians. And so clearly, as I said from Kermanshah, which is the biggest Kurdish populated city of Iran, which was one of the main seats of the opposition protests until Mashhad, from Tabriz to Rashid, from the North to Bushe. Iranians, as called on by Reza Pahlavi, came to the streets and I never seen, never witnessed such level of protest among Iranian people. And after 47 years, I can say for sure that we seem to have one definite leader.
Mustafa Houdry
It will not budge an inch. That is why we believe that the people should support any efforts to take action to defeat the regime, to ease the pressure on the Iranian people.
It would be helpful to find a solution together with the US and with the Iranian opposition forces. To defeat the regime. Thank you.
Abdullah Mohtadi
As for the people rallying around the flag, this is not definitely, this is not the case in Kurdistan. In Kurdish areas. But I haven't seen any such thing in the whole of Iran. So I think this is more of a myth than a reality.
Speaker 12
And of course, the prince Reza Pahlavi has called for unity among all political parties. And these must be based on principles. They cannot just unite without any principles. And to that end, Prince Reza Pahlavi has said there should be territorial integrity. There should be citizens' rights and a system based on citizen rights and equality among all Iranians, irrespective of their gender differences, of their racial and ethnic differences.
Abdullah Mohtadi
The second thing is what Europe can do as far as Iran is concerned. Two things. Two ranges of things. One, putting more pressure, adopting a tougher policy, a tougher stance against the Iranian regime, be it economically, politically, diplomatically.
Speaker 12
What is more important is that the people of Iran have to determine what kind of system they want. And unfortunately, there are some who say that the Iranian people do not have the right to choose their own political system. Some are saying they shouldn't have a monarchy. And some say don't want to accept the territorial integrity. Territorial integrity within Iran for Iran is tantamount to recognizing the international borders.
Abdullah Mohtadi
Second, helping the Iranian opposition get united, facilitating this, facilitating the dialogue, providing forums for that. And I dare say that, please find, however you might have some differences with the United States, find ways, as far as Iran is concerned, find ways to cooperate with them. To have them engaged also in this effort.
Speaker 12
It's like some people say that they don't respect the international borders. And without that, there cannot be any unity. So another question that was asked was that, look, it's not the Western nations, Western people who can tell Iranians what is good, what is bad. All they can say is that the future regime must be based on citizens' rights. But they cannot say we don't like this person because he is the son of so-and-so or we don't like this person because they belong to some military power.
Abdullah Mohtadi
We in Kurdistan have decided have managed to get united. We have now an alliance of Kurdistan Iranian Kurdistan political parties. We also, as Kurds, can play an important role, a significant role in getting the Iranian opposition united. We are committed to that, and we will be partners for that.
That is why I asked the European Union and this committee to work on helping, assisting, facilitating unification of the Iranian democratic opposition. Thank you.
Speaker 12
No, it's the Iranian people and the Iranian people only who can determine that. With regards to inviting the Prince Reza Pahlavi, he is in Italy. That's why he couldn't take part in this. He was taking part in a Senate meeting in Italy. But I think it would be a good idea if the European Parliament invites him as the leader of the national revolution to take part here and to deliver a speech.
Thank you.
One. Question.
Speaker 12
Was about unity, about unity of the opposition forces. First of all, in the past 47 years I have never seen so much unit among Iranians. And so clearly, as I said from Kermanshah, which is the biggest Kurdish-populated city of Iran, which was one of the main seats of the opposition from the North to Bucha.
With regards to the Israeli flag, somebody has highlighted that. This goes back to October 29 of 3 years ago. And it was only a few days after October 7 when the Seventh Arban Front with the Jewish community in Europe organized a session together. And all they wanted to do was condemn the October 7 crime. I don't see that as a problem.
The Iranians as called on by the reservoir, Pahlavi, came to the streets. And I never seen, never witnessed such a level of protests among Iranian people. And after 47 years, I can say for sure that we seem to have one definite leader. And of course, the prince Reza Pallavi would have called for unity among all political parties, but these must be based on principles.
Then somebody mentioned the executions. Why the Saudi executions were not mentioned and only Iranians are. And I want to say in 2025, 82% of executions took place in Iran. But after the November massacres, the January massacres, now there are more and more executions, especially political ones. And I think some 95% of executions are now taking place in Iran.
They cannot just unite without any principles. And to that end, the prince Reza Pahlavi has said there should be territorial integrity. There should be citizens' rights and a system based on citizen rights and equality among all Iranians, irrespective of their gender difference, of their racial and ethnic differences. What is more important is that the people of Iran have to determine what kind of system they want.
And I think the world has to say something. And now, what do we expect from Europe? I think like in the 90s, when you took a stance against crimes against humanity in Yugoslavia, you should do the same in Srebrenica. Some 8,000 were killed, and that was deemed a crime against humanity and a massacre. But they have adopted silence with regard to Iran.
Europe seems to have lost its courage. It reminds me what Churchill said with regard to Chamberlain, that there between shame and war, he took shame. And now, what can Europe do? Europe should stop cooperating with the Islamic Republic. Macron was happy that two French hostages were freed, as he was a year before.
And unfortunately, there are some who say that the Iranian people do not have the right to choose their own political system. So some are saying they shouldn't have a monarchy, and some say don't want to accept territorial integrity. Territorial integrity within Iran for Iran is tantamen to recognizing international borders.
It's like some people say that they don't respect international borders. And without that, there cannot be any unity. So, and I, another question that was asked was that look, it's not the Western nations, Western people who can tell Iranians what is good, what is bad.
I have to cut this short because I've been told I have no more time. But I hope to speak to you further in future sessions. Thank you.
Bezadi.
Sanaz Behzadi
It is very sad that I hear some people ignore the fact that we in Iran have seen people showing the flag of Iran, the national flag, the original flag, the lion and sun flag, calling for Prince Raza Pahlavi. Thousands in the streets who got killed, the youth, the kids, the elderly. And then the focus goes from the people of Iran getting killed, getting murdered, getting massacred by the regime to Israel and America, and if that's correct, to have the war with the Islamic regime. So I think we need to have a review of history and what we are talking about and the questions that we ask. Somebody says, oh, I get irritated when you say prince Reza Pahlavi.
Speaker 12
All they can say is that the future regime must be based on citizens' rights. But they cannot say we don't like this person because he is the son of so-and-so, or we don't like this person because they belong to some military power.
No. It's the Iranian people, and Iranian people only, who can determine that. With regards to inviting the prince Pallavi, he is in Italy. That's why he couldn't take part in this. He was taking part in a Senate meeting in Italy.
But I think it would be a good idea if the European Parliament invites him as the leader of the national revolution to take part here and to deliver a speech.
With regards to the Israeli flag, somebody has highlighted that. This goes back to the twenty-ninth of October of three years ago. And it was only a few days after October 7 when the Seventh Arbahn Front with the Jewish community in Europe organized a session together. And all they wanted to do was condemn the October 7 crime.
Speaker 15
This is very interesting because this person is prince anyway, as Miss Ehbadi said. That's one thing. And the other is, so you get irritated by the people of Iran, by the ones who got killed, the ones who called for Prince, the ones who showed his picture. Are you irritated? Why are we here?
We are here for the people of Iran, not a specific group. I should emphasize this. We are here for lures, for courts, for everyone from every corner of the country. But if there is discrimination in Iran, it's because of the ideology. Islamism, which has started the whole revolution. It started with the mixture of communism and Islamism.
Speaker 12
I don't see that. As being a problem. Then somebody mentioned the executions. Why the Saudi executions were not mentioned? And not only Iranians are. And I want to say in 2025, 82% of exclusions took place in Iran.
But after the November massacres, the January massacres, and now there are more and more executions, especially political ones, and I think some 95% of executions are now taking place in Iran. And I think the world has to say something.
Speaker 15
That is the main problem that we are dealing with in Iran. Let's have a focus on that. I'm lord. I'm from the ethnic lore. Should I talk about why I don't speak lore?
Speaker 12
And now what do we expect from Europe? I think in the nineties, when you took a stance against crimes against humanity in Yugoslavia, you should do the same in Srebrenica. Some 8,000 were killed, and that was deemed a crime against humanity and a massacre, but they have adopted silence with regards to Iran. Europe seems to have lost its courage.
Sanaz Behzadi
Why did this and that happen to Lore? Then what about other dear patriots? And the movement of Zanzeneg I al Zadi, somebody said that it was a Kurdistan movement. No. It was a national movement in Iran.
Speaker 15
Because when a Kurd died, we didn't care who she was from. We just cared that it was an Iranian person. So everybody came out to the streets. What about other cities? What about us?
Speaker 12
It reminds me what Churchill said with regards to Chamberlain, that there between shame and the war, he took shame. And now what can Europe do? Europe should stop cooperating with the Islamic Republic. Macron was happy that two French hostages were freed. And as he was a year before, I have to cut this short because I've been told to. I have no more time.
Speaker 15
What about the people who are out from every ethnic, every language, every dialect in Iran, united calling for Reza Pahlavi, prince, excuse me, prince Reza Pahlavi. I should focus on that, emphasize on that, and then show his pictures in the streets, and then get killed and massacred by the regime for the same reason. What about them? Shouldn't we see them? What about the films, all the clips on the Internet, the families of those massacred children?
Bezadi.
Sanaz Behzadi
It is very sad that I hear some people ignore the fact that we in Iran have seen people showing the flag of Iran, the national flag, the original flag, the lion and sun flag.
Speaker 15
And then why don't we talk about the fact that Muhammad Reza Shah Pahlavi was a candidate for Nobel Prize? Why do you think that was? So all we hear is that, yeah, we had a dictator and now the prince, and then they want to get back to monarchy. This is the call of the people. As some of you said, this is not anyone's decision but the people of Iran.
Sanaz Behzadi
Calling for prince Raza Pahlavi, thousands in the streets who got killed, the youth, the kids, the elderlies. And then the focus goes from the people of Iran getting killed, getting murdered, getting massacred by the regime, to Israel and America, and if that's correct to have the war with the Islamic regime.
Speaker 15
And the people of Iran are calling for Prince. And the interesting thing is that the prince, what he's doing is not for monarchy or getting back to it. We may go back to it if the election goes to that. But right now, we are in a transitional period. What he is asking for is to get everybody united under an umbrella with the four principles that mister Pashy Bashyrtash already mentioned.
Sanaz Behzadi
So I think we need to have a review on what we are talking about and the questions that we ask. Somebody says, oh, I get irritated when you say prince Razal Pahlavi.
Speaker 15
This is very interesting. Because this person is prince anyway, as Miss Ehwadi said, that's one thing. And the other is, so you get irritated by the people of Iran. By the ones who got killed, the ones who called for Prince.
Iran's integrity, you know, to care for the whole land to be kept, and then the equality of every citizen of Iran, whether it's law, whether it's court, whether it's Tehrani, no matter what or where and what religion they have, everybody to be equal, women, men, any other gender or sex. And then to have the separation between the state and the religion. One of the main problems that we have is having the Islamist state and everything is on that fundamental fundamentalist belief. Is that enough? Yeah.
The ones who showed his picture, are you irritated? Why are we here? We are here for the people of Iran, not a specific group. I should emphasize this. We are here for lures, for Gilakis, for quartz, for everyone from every corner of the country.
But if there is discrimination in Iran, it's because of the ideology, the Islamism, which has started the whole revolution. It started with the mixture of communism and Islamism. That is the main problem that we are dealing with in Iran.
Let's have a focus on that. I'm law, I'm from the ethnic law. Should I talk about why I don't speak Lory? Why this and that happened to Lory? Then what about other dear patriots? And the movement of Zans and the Yazadi, somebody said that it was Kurdistan movement.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you to all our speakers. We now come to the end of today's item, but nonetheless, I see that the S and D coordinator has requested to take the floor. Please, Nacho.
Nacho Sánchez Amor
Yeah. I stick to my idea that I expressed clearly, that it's not our role to decide on behalf of the Iranian people. Whatever the Iranian people have decided democratically, we are accepted and we are okay. I only want to clarify to Mr. Bashirtaz. We invited Mister Palabi more than one month ago, and he decided that he had another commitment.
Speaker 15
No. It was a national movement in Iran. Because when a court died, we didn't care who she was. We just cared that it was an Iranian person. So everybody came out to the streets.
What about other cities? What about us? What about the people who are from every ethnic, every language, every dialect in Iran, united calling for Reza Pahlavi prince.
Nacho Sánchez Amor
But the invitation was convened. We agreed on the name of mister Pallavi and other mains. And then please don't insist that we have to invite it. We did it. And he decided freely not to attend this gathering.
Speaker 15
Excuse me. Prince Reza Pahlavi, I should focus on that. Emphasize that. And then showing his pictures in the streets, and then getting killed and massacred by the regime for the same reason.
Nacho Sánchez Amor
And for the reason, because I'm the coordinator of my group, and this was the decision of the coordinators' board, and I would like to be very clear on that. I'm not expressing any preference. My only preference is for the Iranian people to have the opportunity to express democratically who they want to be the rulers of the country. Thank you. Would anyone else?
Speaker 15
What about them? Shouldn't we see them? What about the films, all the clips on the Internet? The families of those massacred children. And then why don't we talk about the fact that Muhammad Raz al Shah Pahlavi was a candidate for Nobel Prize.
David McAllister
No. It's only for members to applaud. Yes? Would anyone else like to take the floor? That is not the case.
Speaker 15
Why do you think was that? So all we hear is that, yeah, we had a dictator and now the prince and then they want to get back to monarchy.
Was disturbed.
Speaker 15
This is the call of the people as some of you repeatedly said, this is not anyone's decision, but the people of Iran. And the people of Iran are calling for Prince. And the interesting thing is that the prince, what he's doing is not for monarchy or getting back to it. We may go back to it. If the election goes towards that. But right now, we are in a transitional period.
Speaker 3
was disturbed. I was shocked by this request, madam, to rewrite history. There was kind of disdain. I was shocked by that. I didn't find that a very diplomatic form of behavior, to accuse us of not knowing our history.
I just wanted to make that comment.
Speaker 15
What he is asking for is to get everybody united under an umbrella with the four principles that mister Pashy Bashyrtash already mentioned. Iran's integrity. You know, to care for the whole land to be kept, and then the equality of every citizen of Iran. Whether it's law, whether it's court, whether it's Tehrani, no matter what or where and what religion they have, everybody is to be equal.
Speaker 3
I think we have given you today a wonderful example of how diverse a parliament can be and yet govern 500,000,000 people. So maybe that can serve as an idea of where united in diversity Iran could head.
David McAllister
I would like to thank our guest speakers for attending today's meeting. Thank you for accepting our invitation. Thank you for coming to Brussels. I think this was very valuable for us to get a better insight. Once again, thank you very much, and all the best for you personally.
Speaker 15
Women, men, any other gender, or sex. And then to have the separation between the state and the religion. One of the main problems that we have is having the Islamist state and everything is on fundamental fundamentalist belief.
David McAllister
And also thanks to Miss Ibarri who was connected online. We will continue our meeting in 2 minutes for the next item.
David McAllister
Thank you to all our speakers. We now come to the end of today's item. But nonetheless, I see that the S and D coordinator has requested to take the floor.
Please, Nacho.
Nacho Sánchez Amor
Yeah. I stick to my idea that I expressed clearly, that it's not our role to decide on behalf of the Iranian people.
Whatever the Iranian people is decided democratically, we are accepted, and we are. I only want to clarify to mister Bashirtaz we invited mister Palabi more than one month ago, and he decided that he had another commitment.
But the invitation was convened. We agreed on the name of mister Pallavi and other mains, and then please don't insist that we have to invite it. We did it.
And he decided freely not to attend this gathering. And for the reason, because I'm the coordinator of my group, and this was the decision of the coordinators board, and I would like to be very clear on that.
I'm not expressing any preference. My only preference is for the Iranian people to have the opportunity to express democratically who they want to be the rulers of the country. Thank you.
David McAllister
Would anyone else? No. It's only for members. To the applause. Yes? Would anyone else like to take the floor? That is not the case.
Speaker 3
Was disturbed. I was disturbed. I was shocked. By this request, madam, to rewrite history. That there was a kind of disdain.
I was shocked by that. I didn't find that a very diplomatic form of behavior. To accuse us of not knowing our history. I just wanted to make that comment.
Speaker 3
I think we have given you today a wonderful example of how diverse parliament can be and yet govern 500,000,000 people. So maybe that can serve as an idea. Of where united in diversity Iran could head to.
David McAllister
I. Would like to thank our guest speakers for attending today's meeting. Thank you for accepting our invitation. Thank you for coming to Brussels. I think this was very valuable for us to get a better insight. Once again, thank you very much, and all the best for you personally.
And also thanks to Ms. Ibarri who was connected online. We will continue our meeting in two minutes, for the next item.
Colleagues. Please be seated. We come to our last item of a long committee day. This is the presentation of the study commissioned by our committee titled, "Addressing the nature and impact of organized crime on the international scene, understanding and legislating for the role of organized crime groups as geopolitical actors."
This study looks at how organized crime groups have evolved into transnational geopolitical actors, and offers policy recommendations on how to hold them to account. This concerns both international legal and EU levels.
The paper was commissioned by parliament services to Poland that hired the experts working at the Royal United Services Institute in the UK, Ruzi in short. Correct? Was has nothing to do with Russia.
No. Indeed. It's Russia. Us in the room today, we have who's sitting next to me, Mister Mark Williams, a research fellow and program manager in the organized crime and policy team at Lucy, who is the lead author of the study.
And doctor Joanna de Deios Pereira, who is a senior research fellow at RUZI specializing in counterterrorism and the prevention and countering of violent extremism, we welcome you to our committee. We thank you for being with us today.
Before we start, allow me to mention, as usual, that the views of the experts expressed today and in the study do not necessarily represent official European Parliament. Positions. I suggest that we first give the floor to Mister Williams for about ten minutes, and then we'll have a brief exchange of views.
Good in time, so dear Mister Williams, welcome.
Mark Williams
Thank you very much, and thank you to all of you for joining this afternoon. For those who are less familiar with RUSI, we are the UK's leading defense security think tank.
And the world's oldest. This presentation, as has been accurately defined, summarizes some of the findings from research we conducted during 2025. Which very broadly had three objectives. The first was to identify how organized criminal groups have evolved into geopolitical actors. The second was to chart the impact that this has had globally, basically across the last couple of decades. And finally, evaluate the suitability of international law to hold these groups to account for those new behaviors.
The central thesis of the study presented three key recommendations. And three key findings. On the findings, the research outlines the contemporary societal developments have accelerated organized criminal groups' development into geopolitical actors.
Geopolitical impact. The speed of this development, and I'll describe this later, has not been matched by legal policy and enforcement responses, which broadly continue to rely on outdated conceptions of what constitutes an organized criminal group, and what constitutes organized crime.
While the EU contains many useful tools combating organized crime in this way, the responses require closer integration and a more forward-looking approach. Many of the findings in the research reflect trends that have existed for a long time. Organized criminal groups have always exploited state power vacuums. Representing both the symptom and driver of declining governance. Those exploitation mechanisms are familiar to all of us and will involve corruption, weak governance, and common themes that we've seen for decades.
However, a few recent key developments have accelerated those trends, and the evolution of these groups in their geopolitical domain. First, technological innovation expanded the geographic footprint of these groups. Allowing them to proliferate their activities beyond territorial borders. Second, the parallel increase in liberalized trade, fluid global financing mechanisms, has meant it is much easier for people to do business cross border.
In this environment, people who trade and smuggle, be that licit or illicit, are pioneering globalization. The report traces the evolution of these groups over the last few decades and suggests that the behaviors can be grouped into three distinct categories, all of which contain a few common themes.
The first overriding thought is that these groups are strategic and not parasitic. That is to say they not only act reactively and opportunistically to gaps, but proactively seek to create those gaps within our societies.
Further, in all of the cases that I'm about to discuss, organized crime thrives alongside and within the legitimate business environment. It is not to be annexed to the state or legal business.
With that being said, we frame the evolution of these groups as a giblet geopolitical actors into three categories. The first are groups which we deemed opposed to the state. These were large-scale powerful groups with enough power to contest traditional government.
We perhaps most commonly think about these in Latin America, the Sinaloa Cartel and other significant drug trafficking organizations have expanded their footprint. And now are able to control territory, transport corridors, as well as influence policy.
See the tax on officials in recent years, and the majority of efforts to combat these groups have overwhelmingly focused on the punitive disruption of drug trafficking. This includes recent efforts by countries to designate OCGs as terror groups, to justify extraterritorial action, and in some cases, military intervention. In all cases, these approaches fail to recognize the entrenched nature of organized crime in communities and state infrastructure.
The second category of group identified in the study are those groups that are embedded within the state.
These. Groups seek not to combat the state or its power, but instead to exploit gaps to their advantage. In many ways, this is the traditional mafia method deployed by individuals, medium-sized, and large-scale groups alike to exploit gaps in governance structures.
Identified efforts to combat this type of infiltration typically face significant challenges. Due to the protections that are by default afforded to states in international law and to private corporations, as well as the often overlooked symbiotic relationship between illicit and illicit economies.
And the final category of group identified during the study are those groups that are sponsored directly by the state. These are groups weaponized as proxies in modern warfare. Here, we present examples of organized crime groups being leveraged to deliver cyberattacks, misinformation campaigns, and provide money laundering services among other functions.
On behalf of the state. In response, states are hamstrung by a few key factors. Foundationally, the tenets of international law including the widely accepted definition of organized crime group enshrined in the UN Convention on International Organized Crime or the UNTOK overly focused on the structure of these groups and their financial incentives. International law is also predicated on the interaction between states. In practice, this is a significant limiting factor because it simultaneously forces us to assume that OCGs are distinct from the state.
As subjects of the law. And risks empowering malign state actors with the tools to facilitate crime, eliminate competition. Finally, international law is fundamentally limited by its roots in political power.
The lawmaking process is influenced by state power, and given organized crime is not listed as a core international crime, international humanitarian law, efforts to respond to transnational crime are overwhelmingly national. In the context of the EU, the response is simultaneously comprehensive as well as lacking integration.
While the global strategy from 2016, the strategic compass from 2022 recognize the changing DNA of organized crime. This is not always manifested in practice. For example, while the EU strategy to tackle organized crime encourages high-level disruption and other enforcement tactics, these overwhelmingly assume that organized crime sits outside of state functions.
Some of the EU's most effective counter-organized crime tools face similar hurdles. Financial disruption, cross border law enforcement, and mutual legal assistance efforts are weakened by the absence of a structural mechanism to standardize diplomatic approaches to combating organized crime. Further, and at a more granular level, a lack of guidance on data sharing and protection with external partners limits the depth of engagement on key issues.
Under the CFSP and the CDSP, great coordination occurs to enable the imposition of sanctions, for example, to strengthen multilateral partnerships. But the targets of these interventions remain criminal networks caught committing crimes. They do not provide an avenue to combat groups that destabilize regions, enable hostile actors, and undermine governance.
As a result, the report concludes by presenting a series of recommendations to the European Parliament, which will be displayed on screen shortly. Broadly, these recommendations seek to establish a more robust framework of laws for defining the breadth of organized crime, and ensuring that there is a legislative base for more efficient and effective cross-border cooperation.
The current definitions are overly reliant on structure financial benefit, fail to capture the more clandestine activities of these groups that are delivered on a strategic level. Several parallel recommendations seek to create new structures to enhance and guide operational collaboration. Recognize that collaboration is important not only in its intent, but structurally.
To the EU, there is a need for more specific infrastructure to address organized crime and its offshoot impacts. Coordinating bodies that help standardize the approach across different departments. And finally, to the gap with data, there is a need to ensure OCG threat analyses are normalized. That is to say that we include consistent analysis of how these groups are evolving geopolitically, and what mechanisms are working to combat them.
I think, hopefully, with a minute or two to spare, that's a useful overview. Joanna and I are available to answer any questions for the remainder of the Q&A session. And obviously available to MEPs thereafter, if you'd like to get in touch. With the email details that hopefully are on the screen now.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Right. Mister Williams, thank you very much. We now have time for some questions or comments. Michi Ragalla first.
Speaker 18
No, thank you for this overview or for this introduction. And to present this study. I was always thinking while you were speaking whether there are existing organisms or organizations with a name that I could attach this label to. So is it now more those who organize, those lawyers who organized the Panama Papers, is it them? Or is it in a different way? Is it the Wagner Group who are somewhere in Africa claiming not to be from Russia, but doing something else and being only paid mercenaries, or is it the traditional mafia that goes global? So if you could perhaps simply come up also with some concrete name of organisms that you were thinking of. So that I get a better feeling of whom we are talking about and which kind of people that is.
Thank you.
Thank you, Michel.
Nacho Sánchez Amor
Nacho? Well, thank you. Thank you for the work. I think not you because you have been studying, I assume, this phenomena. In your academic or your research, we are creating some awareness about there is a new guy in the block. There is a new actor in geopolitics. And we have to be aware of that, and we have to try to tackle the challenges that this kind of blue ringed organisms represent for traditional politics.
And for that reason, I think this is a seminal work on this thing. I would like to, I'm a little bit frustrated, you know, because I proposed this study. And my original idea is only partially covered because it's about geopolitical influence or domestic political influence. And for that reason, I would like to explore with just yourself your ideas in which way these three groups, the state opposed, the state embedded, and the state sponsored, they interact. Or if there are groups starting to be state opposed, but they reach the level of, make say, take position in the parliament. Is that the parliaments are very easy to have a seat paid by some criminal organization? And in which way these three categories interact, in which way the criminal entities they pass from one to another.
But I think I have to read carefully the paper, but I think we have to start talking not only about the geopolitical influence, but the domestic political influence of the criminal organizations.
Then could be transnational or not, but there is a state capture or a parliament capture, one single state is a thing we have to take. In their own radar.
Thank you for the first step in which I can assume, and I hope it is going to be developed not only from the academia, but also from the institutions as a new way to address this kind of phenomenon.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you, Natsu. Now I have a request to take the floor from other groups. Mister Orlando, yes, you're next.
Leoluca Orlando
Thank you, chair. I'd like to express my appreciation for their study. And share a few remarks. We're distinguishing between normal organized crime, if I can call it that. And organized crime as a kind of power system.
So the interrelationship between a power system and organized crime. It's not only illicit interests and impunity. There are also aspects of exerting power using power, and that then interrelates with the government and the institutions of a country. And there are various different forms which you've referred to. It could be government opposed, embedded, or sponsored. There are three different ways in which we can see this interconnection. But, basically, organized crime is interacting with power.
And that means government institutions are involved in some way. An old Sicilian mafia boss was once accused by a journalist of not being serious and constantly changing party allegiances, and he replied, oh no.
We always support the same party. We always support the government. It's a government that keeps changing party. Not us. And that's how you could perhaps understand the difference between traditional ordinary organized crime and an organized crime power system.
If you like. And I think it's interesting to look at what happens when you take on one of those three forms. When law enforcement succeeds in tackling an opposed mafia.
May be dependent rather than sponsored. And another aspect which is not referred to at any great length in this document is the Italian mafia. I think, you know, unfortunately, sadly as it is to say, it goes on us and 'Ndrangheta Camorra do have a certain reputation.
Italy has unfortunately become known for some of these organizations and the math in Italy and their relationship with big money, big finance, and power systems back Blackfriars in London, and so it might be an interesting area to explore as well.
So why not take a look at the Italian mafia as well? It might also be interesting to do a comparison because of the UN Convention of December 2000, the Palermo Convention, which refers specifically to these issues, the UN Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime.
Zero tolerance doesn't work. Zero tolerance doesn't work. Because law enforcement is only one side of the equation. And you need to work on cultures and ways of doing things too. It's like a wagon with two wheels, both wheels need to be moving, otherwise, it's not going to move forward.
And so you need to look at the specific characteristics of this non-normal power organized crime? We have two more.
David McAllister
Colleagues have requested the floor. Mister Brown and Miss Sorrell. And then I'll close the speakers list. Mr. Brown.
Nathaniel Brown
Thank you very much. Mr. Rapporteur. A very interesting study on organized crime in international relations, if I understand well. Organized crime has some true nature of international relations in some cases.
Speaker 50
So the group that fits your definition perfectly. Absolutely, perfectly, your definition of organized crime group would be the European Commission. Itself. Obviously, with its criminal schemes of extortion, of hostile takeover, so-called pandemia, the Ukrainian Zelenskyy scheme, of simply robbery. Organized robbery of other people's money.
So what is it if it's not organized crime? What is it? Obviously, we have the Epstein scheme of blackmail, international blackmail, Epstein scheme working together with Netanyahu scheme. So please, sir, expand your study. Please give us more examples, and please go to even further conclusions of your own reasoning.
Thank you very much.
Miss Sorrell, please.
Speaker 3
Well, it seems to me, mister Williams, that in the European Union, we're facing two forms. You refer to three groups. I think we already have organized groups which are opposed to states. And then we have filtered groups which have started to filter into states, but we don't have yet this third group.
Could you tell me what you think about the actions we carry out through Europol, UEDR? What activities are the most important in your view? I saw in Libbey, we're working on drugs-related matters linked to prostitution, armed trafficking, money laundering, VAT fraud. What's your view on all of this? We and the European Union are also signing agreements with a number of countries, which are where drugs originate from, but also countries through which the drugs transit. So we are criticizing all of this, but we haven't reacted appropriately.
Where are we right now in the European Union? Is there anything that we could qualify as a narco state? Or are some countries on their way to becoming such, narco state? What's your opinion on those points I've just raised? And also, could you give us a comparative analysis of what exists, how can we combat within the European Union, within other countries?
If we had some sort of comparative analysis across these countries to see what has worked, what hasn't worked. Because as you said, we are taking a lot of action in repression to law enforcement, but this is afterwards, downstream. We'd need something upstream, on the prevention side. Could something be done there? And this would be my concluding point.
Because in the European Union, if you seem to me, you might contradict or not agree with my point of view, but it seems to me that we have major problems with drugs. Do you think that tackling the consumption of drugs could be a way that we could tackle this problem?
Thank you.
David McAllister
Alright. Let me thank all colleagues for their contributions. And that, mister Williams. If you could perhaps respond in roughly ten minutes. And then we will close this item.
Mark Williams
Happy to, thank you very much for the questions. I'll take the first one and maybe pass it over to my colleague, Joanna, for the second. To help concretize the types of groups we're thinking about, so along the different categories, the state of those groups, think we referenced, but think Sinaloa cartel, Medellin cartel, groups that are known for drug trafficking primarily, but in practice control territories, provide services to communities that Medellin Cartel ran for public office, decades ago. And so wild star enforcement mechanisms are designed to respond to such groups as criminal entities. We miss the tranche of activities they perform helps solidify their power within communities.
And so those are the kinds of groups we're talking about when we reference state-opposed groups. In terms of groups that are embedded within the state, I think a couple of questions have alluded to Cosa Nostra and the Italian mafia method. Which has fluctuated between being combated towards the state as well as collaborative, there's an infiltration inherent there.
The report presents the case study, in particular, of Paul Joss in Sierra Leone, one of Europe's most wanted criminals. And his ability to basically obfuscate law enforcement by embedding himself within the fabrics of those governance structures.
And finally, on the state sponsored category, think TGR, smart, large organized crime group networks that have been linked to cyber campaigns, disinformation campaigns. You have the Lazarus Group from Korea. And so those are the types of groups that we're talking about now. That helps crystallize the broad spectrum. But the unifying factor with all of them is they have transcended in a way the material financial purpose that I think our law enforcement is designed to respond to. There will be lots of activities that these groups conduct that are not directly for profit, that may yield benefit profit-wise in the future. But foundationally, we don't have the structures at the minute to identify and define those activities. And then shape a response.
Maybe over to you for question two.
Joanna
Of course, there are new on the block. That's why we call them geopolitical actors. And what we have observed over the last decade is actually not only a transformation and an evolution, but also a shape-shifting of organized crime groups that are sometimes even activated on demand. So they are not only within their own market, within their own specific niche, but they are also in the market to respond and be used as tools by some nonstate actors, by state actors, as the report mentioned.
But I would touch on something that is quite important. Mister Orlando was mentioning quite right, Cosa Nostra, they were kind of the traditional organized crime groups that we had. In Europe. It's today, if we look at the business operations of these both examples, we can almost compare them to very legit operations and structures. And they also get involved in some semi legit ones to kind of give some gray, sufficient gray zone, to make them operate court free of the accountability and normative mechanisms.
So what I think this study also highlights is, of course, not only an update on the mechanisms that we have because the threat has evolved, but also the extraterritorial dimension of these groups that once only operate in specific geographic regions and are now completely transnational. And this is where it becomes quite important to look at hybrid threats, to look at how organized crime is also a tool in some of the current geopolitical conflict.
In Europe and abroad.
Mark Williams
Joanna. Perhaps at question three, there were lots of interesting remarks around normal organized crime as it was put and organized crime as part of wider power systems. I think was much of those remarks that aligned with our study.
Two key perhaps follow-up points. One is that I think it's important to recognize that these groups shape our societies in the way they force us to respond. So for example, drug trafficking is a very visceral, tangible threat that we can understand and see, because we see victims of drug trafficking, and we make that connection quite quickly. It's much harder to understand if an organized crime group establishes a restaurant that garners favor with local communities, attracts local politicians, that builds bridges within those communities, and the long term effects of that kind of network building and where that power is then implemented is very different from what we understand as organized crime.
So I think one of the foundational findings of the study is that these groups are operating in much more strategic ways than our law enforcement responses and policy approaches are currently designed to respond to.
Joanna, do you have anything else to add on the question? Three before? On the fourth point, I won't remark about the comment made in relation to the European Commission as an organized crime group. That being said, within the contents of what was said, the parameters of our study were very narrow.
I think what is important is to recognize that we are seeking to approach organized criminal groups as defined as is currently situated within international law, but expanding upon that to understand that crime and geopolitics are interlinked. That is not to say that existing legitimate state structures are crime groups. That is to say organized criminal groups have more power than we perhaps initially foresaw and more power than I think the current legislative framework is designed to combat.
On the final question, okay. Would you like to take a first stab, and then I can add my final Yes.
Joanna
Comment? So the current EU framework is currently generally strong, and I would be lying if I said the opposite, but it has several limits or several gaps. Being one of them, for example, at the level of cooperation, of course, the European arrest warrant has transformed extradition within the EU. And it has replaced complex, diplomatic procedures.
But is it enough? Probably, it's still not. And then, for example, if we look at the instruments that we have at the level of the internal security of the union, but also the instruments that are used by the European external abroad, are they really communicating? When we look at cycles like impact? And if we think of the transnational organized crime groups, how the EU deploys significant resources through the neighborhood and development instrument.
These are legitimate questions that we also raise in our report. I believe that the biggest weakness in terms of is actually in terms of enforcement when we say, and it's on the report, that last, for example, less than 2% of the estimated criminal proceeds within the EU are confiscated annually. And when we talk about subjects such as asset recovery, we see there several gaps. Then we lack in terms of external enforcement cooperation that the EU does not control. And if we think of drug trafficking, if we think about trafficking in persons, this becomes particularly complex.
But also, if we think about strategic infrastructure that is being systematically exploited, such as seaports and free zones, and the fact that we continue to have multi-jurisdictional governance to address corruption and customs vulnerabilities. This might become an issue.
And for that reason, we made several suggestions and recommendations in our report that I think, Marc, you can conclude and address.
Mark Williams
Sure. And we're on time. But just to that point, I think to remark on the comment made, you're absolutely correct that there is great work being done by law enforcement.
Europol, as an intelligence hub and a coordinating body producing results. That said, the report highlights that disruption and the impact of disruption on the long term functioning of these groups is tenuous.
And so greater work is needed, as you've described, to look at consumption. But by its nature, when we've responded through law enforcement, it's reactive. Responding to something that has happened, and there's only so much impact we can have, we can't be more strategic and understand the aims of these groups moving forward.
So respecting state sovereignty, understanding principles of legal restraint, the recommendation is not that organized crime has now become a foreign policy. But the elements of the ways in which organized crime manifests do not fit neatly into current definitions.
International law, international humanitarian law, it sits within those gaps. And that is what I believe we need to start plugging if we want to understand how these groups evolve, how they continue to survive despite taking out kingpins, and what we can do to tackle them more effectively.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Right. Thank you. We have to conclude in a few minutes. But I understand that Nacho had a follow-up question. Yes.
Thank you.
Nacho Sánchez Amor
If we start our approach to the phenomena, of the legal current definition of the phenomenon is not good. Because the nature of the phenomenon is changing. How can we describe Yakuza? Muslim brotherhood? Substituting the state in the poor neighborhoods of many Arab countries, Bagnarok.
Has been mentioned by Kalle. Illegal mining is illegal, but it's not criminal except if you contaminate on purpose with Mercurio River. The first negotiation with the Maras, before the second Bukele The Great Wolves in Turkey and in Europe. It is not the same phenomena. It's not the same organization. It's not the same genetics.
But these groups are infiltrating politics. And I think we have to plow on this idea, but thank you for this approach that I hope is the starting point for a more developed approach from politics. And for the political institutional bodies.
Thank you.
Joanna
Thank you for that comment. I can rapidly respond to that, giving a comparative example to what the European Union does well. For example, we do not have a common understanding or a conceptual definition of what terrorism is.
By the European Union. But we have defined the activities, what are terrorist activities. And I think it would be a strategic, efficient avenue to define what organized criminal activities are. If we start with this the three categorization, for example, of activities, if we start with the descriptor of the activities and not looking at the entities because I think it was said by all interventions
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