Committee on Foreign Affairs Ordinary meeting
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AFET European Parliament
Follow its sittingsVolker Türk
And I watch this particularly in conflict situations, but also in the use of technology, including generative AI when it comes to weapon systems, and in the increasing use of drones. We have seen an increase in the use of drones in most conflict situations, but I would like to highlight just for Sudan that since the beginning of the year, most civilian casualties were related to drone attacks by both sides. It also means that civilian casualties will continue throughout the rainy season because it's this type of weapon systems that allow the warring parties to continue their war and their armed activities. So drones have an impact on civilians that is totally disproportionate.
So we are really faced with a situation and a complexity of a magnitude that I think we have rarely experienced before. Many of today's conflicts and wars are rooted in human rights issues or in failure to respect human rights. So there is a direct connection in terms of addressing root causes, in terms of addressing prevention between human rights and violations of human rights, discrimination, the neglect, but also then potential conflict situations and armed and armed and and war. We see that whatever happens, including the attacks against international law, they have repercussions very quickly elsewhere. And just when we look at at the Middle East, I mean the the war in in the Middle East, we saw what the recent closure of the Strait of Hormuz meant, how conflict and economic disruption are immediately having not only effects on the global economy, but also are interconnected with with everyone's life in one way or another.
But this is only one example. In fact, if we go into the political economy of most conflicts today, even if it's not so apparent, we will always find a connection with even lives in Europe. Europe, of course, has been one of the success stories of multilateralism. And when I look at the international global level, I have to say the attacks that we see against multilateral institutions, including the UN, but also institutions such as the International Criminal Court, are extremely worrying because we cannot afford multilateralism has its place and a very important place. And well, you are the best to know what multilateralism has brought in terms of prosperity the conti- to the continent.
But at the global level, it has become a little bit of a fashion to bash the UN, often without any knowledge about the history of the United Nations or what the UN is doing on a daily basis, including of many of my colleagues risking their lives in order to deliver to people around the world. And we see that the erosion of international legal standards, that some countries act with impunity, that the law is seen as optional, creates grave risks for all of us. And we cannot afford that erosion. Nobody can afford it. And it's clear that there is a strong, if I may, European interest, certainly from our perspective, from the UN perspective, a strong European interest to push for respect of international law and to stand up for the institutions.
And I welcome European Union decisions and policy papers on humanitarian aid, for example, or a more coherent approach to fragility, because they actually affirm and they have reaffirmed the commitment of the European Union to human rights and gender equality as drivers of stability and sustainable development. The other topic which had some prominence in my global update was about civic space. Because we see a very worrying trend that civic space is shrinking. And we if some if one looks at at some surveys and and studies that were done, today we have only 7% of the world population living in effect in functioning democracies. A couple of years it was 12.5%.
So we see a regression, which often starts, by the way, with the restrictions to civic space. It starts with when dialogue is shut down, when people end up in their echo chambers, when we can't anymore agree to disagree, when we can't find compromise, when we don't hear the other even and can't have a debate anymore.
And I mean, of course, parliaments play an incredibly important role in that regard. And we also see it when it comes to restrictions and foreign agents laws, for example, in a number of countries around the world, the attacks against independent media. And just if you look at last year, according to our recording and verified information, our preliminary data set for 2023 indicates that some 950 human rights defenders, journalists, and trade unionists were killed or forcibly disappeared worldwide in last year, which is more than double the number of a decade ago. And that really, I mean, if you have killings of human rights defenders, journalists, and others, that gives you an indication how far the, how far this can go. I think it's also important, no continent, no country is immune from these trends.
I think we, if I may, I think it is also important to be vigilant within the European Union about tendencies to shut out civic space, to restrict freedom of association or freedom, freedom of expression, or to impose restrictions on the work of NGOs. I mean, there's always a legitimate reason to have discussions about it, but at the same time, I'm also worried that some of the tendencies that we see worldwide could somewhat have also an impact inside the European Union. We also see that anti-rights groups are increasingly well-connected and coordinated. They are operated, they're operating across borders. And we see that huge sums flow into their activities.
So we really look to Europe for being a strong bastion against some of these tendencies and trends. And very often it starts with gender equality issues, it starts with attacks against minorities, it starts with attacks against migrants and refugees, including the very divisive, polarized narratives against communities and a growing use of harmful language and imagery that portrays people, human beings, in a light that dehumanizes them. So there is a specific responsibility for everyone to ensure that we are not inflaming tensions and not stigmatizing communities and using them as a scapegoat. We have also seen increasingly transnational repression trends. I know that European Union has helped us a lot on this, on this phenomenon.
And we see this increasingly occurring not just in Southeast Asia, but or in East Asia, but also in East Africa, for example. And there has been a very strong collaboration, especially with the Parliament. And I would like to thank you for working with us and more than 100 organizations in the community of practice on the protection of human rights defenders in Europe. That's very important. It's a very important signal also to people around the world.
And we will need to work much more on transnational repression because that's frankly part of the playbook of authoritarians in many ways. On business and human rights, just to say that business, and this is part of also of the global alliance, we want to make sure that the global alliance is a big tent. It's an umbrella that allows each and every segment of society to be part of a reinvigoration of human rights in all aspects. And especially on business, I've just come from the Netherlands, but in Europe and in also in the industrialized world, we regular meet with the business community because we see how important the type of questions they ask of us are directly related to human rights. You know, they are all the issues around the guiding principles on business and human rights.
You have of course your own the corporate sustainability due diligence directive, which is an important one. We hopefully see also its implementation to be aligned with with human rights standards. But there is huge interest on the part of business to work on this with us. Digital side as well. You play, European Union, we look to the European Union to continue playing its championship role on global technology governance.
We see already, I mean, we have seen it not just now, but we have seen it for a while, the impact that it has on child safety. We we just issued guidelines on child safety online. We also will have more and more dialogue on artificial intelligence and the governance of artificial intelligence. And you have you can play a very strong role, not least based on your own regulatory framework, which we welcome. And we just need to make sure that it influences also global developments.
It's extremely important to make sure that human rights, which is a normative framework, is part and parcel of of the debate also at the global level. And in a way, we hope very much that you will be a strong supporter of this. So just to in in summary and just to share some final reflections, it's going to be ever more important to ensure strong partnerships, strategic, political, financial partnership with the European Union on human rights. It is, let's not forget, a low-cost, high-impact investment. We within the United Nations, if you look both at the regular budget and the extra-budgetary funding, we actually receive less than 1% of the total budget.
But the investment in human rights protection has huge preventive effect. It is we have this function of being the custodian also and the watchdog, if you like, of some of the developments around the world that have direct impact also on Europe. I also want to emphasize that human rights are not ideological. Sometimes we see in the political debate a an attempt to make it part of an ideology. They're not.
They are part and parcel of the social contract in each and every society. They, as you know, emerged not just with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 80 years or almost 80 years ago. They did emerge from the struggle for freedom that has lasted for centuries. And they have always been part of an important basic consensus that we need within societies to function. I also think the human rights, and I'm glad that the Foreign Affairs Committee pays attention to it so so much, is a central component not only of foreign policy, but also of security policy.
It is part of the toolbox of statecraft. And it offers a factor of stability and a prism that goes across all aspects of governance. It links directly to people, to survivors, to victims, to young people, to women's groups. And especially in troubled and confused times, it's a compass, it's a it's an orientation. And it allows for transformative and systemic change.
So we look we continue to look to Europe as a an important voice of reason amidst the turmoil and the turbulence that we experience. And well, as you have called us a strategic partner, we want to continue to be your strategic partner on human rights, supporting accountable governance, strengthening the human rights capacity of public institutions and civil society, aligning legal and regulatory frameworks with international human rights standards, and promoting inclusive approaches. So we're now moving in a global alliance from concept to action.
And we don't want this to be a bureaucratic exercise, we want this to be an exercise of renewal, revitalization of human rights, especially ahead of the 80th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which we will have on the 10th December 2028, and to see how we can mobilize, galvanize, and offer human rights as a solution for our current challenges, but also inspire people around the world for thinking creatively and innovatively about how we can improve the human rights situation of everyone around the world. So I again thank you very much.
David McAllister
Thank you very much, dear Volker Türk, for your introductory statement. We now have time for an exchange of views. Please indicate whether you would like to take the floor and then we will move forward according to the speakers' list. And we begin with Isabel Wiseler-Lima for the EPP.
Isabel Wiseler-Lima
Thank you very much for being with us and to be able to have this exchange. Je continue en français. Vous avez évoqué les guerres et les conflits en premier point et il me semble que c'est tout à fait justifié. Pardon, j'attends. I can also do it in English if you prefer, it will be not a issue.
So, it's more easy for me in French, but... Décidément. Vous avez commencé par les guerres et les conflits et je crois que c'est tout à fait justifié. Nous ne nous rendons pas toujours compte à quel point, quand nous ne vivons pas au sein d'une guerre, à quel point nous sommes chanceux. Et c'est le lieu où les droits de l'homme sont probablement les plus contestés et non appliqués.
Votre deuxième point, c'était le multilatéralisme. Je dois dire que c'est un sujet que j'évoque depuis des années. Et de voir que le multilatéralisme diminue de plus en plus en importance, qu'il est refusé par certains, et qu'en plus il n'y a pas un vide qui se crée quand les démocraties se retirent, mais que les autoritarismes prennent la place et la façon dont ils veulent changer la définition même des droits de l'homme est un des grands risques, je crois, de notre temps. Peut-être que vous voudrez réagir par rapport à cela, donc à cette définition, parce que, et vous l'avez évoqué à la fin, les droits de l'homme justement ne sont pas une idéologie, ne sont pas liés à une région ou une contrée, ce sont des droits universels. Et je tiens beaucoup à ce terme.
Oui, nous basons au sein de notre Union européenne et dans nos contrées, les droits de l'homme sont un fondement, mais ils sont universels. Ce ne sont pas des droits européens. Ce sont des droits universels. Et un point sur lequel j'aimerais peut-être vous entendre un peu plus, c'est sur l'intelligence artificielle et l'internet en lui-même.
Ce qui s'y passe est plus qu'inquiétant quand on pense aux droits de chaque citoyen, mais de chaque être. Je pense effectivement, vous avez évoqué nos enfants, les tout jeunes, ce à quoi ils sont confrontés et ce qui les forme. Ça forme les esprits. Ils sont tellement d'heures sur ces médias que ça forme leur façon de penser et c'est pour toute l'humanité que c'est important. Donc à ce niveau-là, si vous pouviez aussi encore nous dire un peu sur quoi vous travaillez de manière plus spécifique.
Pas seulement l'intelligence artificielle, mais vraiment ce qui se passe sur internet. Merci beaucoup.
Francisco Assis
Thank you very much. I will speak in my language, in Portuguese. Senhor Alto Comissário, saúdo-o, compreendendo a dificuldade enorme da missão que leva a cabo. Desde logo, dirige um Alto Comissariado em que grande parte dos países que lá estão representados e presentes são países que não só não respeitam os direitos humanos, como nalguns casos até atacam os próprios princípios dos direitos humanos, considerando que são um modelo de direitos humanos de origem ocidental e que não se aplicariam a esses países, o que naturalmente dificultará muito o seu trabalho. As questões que gostaria de colocar são as seguintes.
Nós estamos a viver, de facto, um momento de grande retrocesso nalgumas zonas do mundo em matéria de direitos humanos. E creio que há algumas confusões que se têm vindo a fazer nos últimos anos, nomeadamente o multilateralismo. Eu sou, obviamente, nós somos a favor do multilateralismo. Mas há bom e mau multilateralismo, também é preciso dizê-lo com toda a clareza, como há boa e má invocação do direito internacional. Eu vejo que hoje há cada vez mais países que invocam o direito internacional.
Ao invocar o direito internacional, só invocam a Carta das Nações Unidas, mas esquecem deliberadamente a Declaração Universal dos Direitos do Homem, que também faz parte do direito internacional, o direito humanitário. E esse é sistematicamente esquecido por vários países no mundo inteiro. E muitas das considerações que se fazem em nome da legalidade internacional ignoram completamente essa dimensão. Portanto, não basta fazer apelo ao respeito pela Carta das Nações Unidas. É preciso articular isso com o apelo ao respeito pela Declaração Universal dos Direitos Humanos, sob pena de, em nome do respeito pela Carta, estarmos a enaltecer soberanismos perigosos e um multilateralismo, uma ideia de multilateralismo que também pode ser perigosa.
Portanto, isso parece-me uma questão importante. Queria chamar a atenção para outro tema que nem sempre é referido e que julgo é um tema que nós temos falado muito aqui nos nossos debates, que é a importância das guerras no Sudão e no Iémen. Nós acompanhamos muito isso. Hoje o número de deslocados nestes dois países é da ordem dos 15 milhões. Portanto, são os países claramente onde há mais problemas neste momento e são países relativamente ignorados no nosso debate e relativamente ignorados nas nossas discussões.
E julgo que há uma vantagem grande em trazer isso permanentemente à colação. De maneira que as questões são estas. A primeira é aquela, esta segunda, mas a primeira gostaria de o ouvir sobre isto. Isto é, fala-se muito de direito internacional e bem, fala-se muito de multilateralismo e bem, mas fala-se muitas vezes num sentido que, do meu ponto de vista, é perigoso porque desvaloriza a componente do respeito pela Declaração Universal dos Direitos Humanos. Muito obrigado.
Viktória Ferenc
Thank you Chair, I will be speaking Hungarian. Tisztelt Főbiztos úr, köszönöm, hogy ma velünk van, és lehetőségünk nyílik áttekinteni a világ emberi jogi helyzetének legfontosabb kihívásait, és tehetünk egy lépést a megoldások felé.
Én kárpátaljai magyar származású képviselőként Ukrajna emberi jogi helyzetére reflektálnék, és erről kérdezném önt is. Különös tekintettel arra, hogy az Európai Unió a közelmúltban megnyitotta a csatlakozás első klaszterét Ukrajnával, amelynek központi követelménye az alapvető jogok és az emberi jogok tiszteletben tartása. Sajnos Ukrajna immár több mint négy éve háborúban áll, civilek és katonák ezrei veszítették életüket, és ez óriási tragédia. Vannak azonban olyan tragédiák, amelyek megelőzhetőek lennének, elkerülhetőek lennének megfelelő fellépéssel. A hadiállapot mozgósítással is jár, ez a realitás, aggodalommal követem azonban az ukrán toborzótisztek által elkövetett emberi jogsértéseket.
Számos esetben ugyanis a katonai mozgósítás alól jogszerű mentességgel rendelkező férfiakat hurcolnak el az utcáról. Tele van az internet olyan valós felvételekkel, ahol egy térfigyelő kamera vagy egy járókelő mobiltelefonnal rögzíti, ahogy négy-öt ember igazoltatás nélkül megragadja a katonakorú férfiakat, autóba, furgonba tuszkolva őket. A jogtalan elhurcolások a kárpátaljai magyar nemzeti kisebbséget is érintik. Halasztással rendelkező egyetemisták és védettséget élvező tanárok jogtalan fogvatartásáról, súlyos betegséggel küzdő férfiak mozgósítással összefüggő tragikus haláláról kellett tájékoztatnom a bizottságot már eddig is. Érdemi változás azonban eddig nem történt az ügyben, ami érthetetlen.
Ha az emberek hangját nem akarják meghallani, akkor elég, ha az ukrán parlament emberi jogi biztosának jelentését vagy az Ukrajnával foglalkozó független nemzetközi vizsgáló bizottság jelentését olvassák el, amelyek szintén megerősítik a súlyos jogsértéseket az ukrán mozgósítási gyakorlatban. Főbiztos úr, önt arról szeretném megkérdezni, hogy volt-e tudomása ezekről a jogtalan ukrán mozgósítási gyakorlatokról, és milyen konkrét lépéseket tud tenni annak érdekében, hogy ez a probléma megfelelő figyelmet kapjon, a jogsértéseket kivizsgálják, és legfőképpen, hogy a toborzóirodák jogsértő gyakorlata megszűnhessen. Köszönöm.
Arkadiusz Mularczyk
Szanowny panie komisarzu, w swoich publicznych wystąpieniach wielokrotnie podkreślał pan, że reparacje są istotnym elementem sprawiedliwości okresu przejściowego. Służą nie tylko naprawieniu szkód, ale również uzyskaniu przez ofiary zadośćuczynienia za straty, za cierpienie, które poniosły. Ponad trzy lata temu spotkałem się z panem w Genewie jako pełnomocnik rządu polskiego rządu do spraw odszkodowań za szkody wyrządzone przez agresję i okupację niemiecką podczas II wojny światowej i przekazałem panu raport o stratach wojennych. Zwróciłem panu też uwagę na to, że wsparcie Organizacji Narodów Zjednoczonych jest kluczowe w tej sprawie. Niestety do tego czasu sytuacja ofiar nie uległa zmianie.
Polskie ofiary II wojny światowej nie mają prawa do zadośćuczynienia jak ofiary żydowskie czy amerykańskie czy francuskie. Polskie ofiary nie mają nie mają prawa do sądu. Wielokrotne apele do rządu Niemiec, do wszystkich niemieckich kanclerzy nie odniosły żadnego efektu. Polska nigdy nie otrzymała sprawiedliwego odszkodowania za wojnę, a ofiary nie mają drogi do sądu. Społeczność międzynarodowa domaga się słusznie odpowiedzialności za zbrodnie wojenne.
Unia Europejska jest aktywna na polu walki o reparacje dla Ukrainy, natomiast milczy w sprawie reparacji dla Polski czy Grecji. Czy uważa pan, że taki stan rzeczy jest zgodny z międzynarodowym systemem praw człowieka? Czy i czy byłby pan gotów autorytetem swojego urzędu zaapelować do rządu Niemiec o podjęcie dialogu z Polską i sprawiedliwe uregulowanie tej kwestii po 80 latach, bo bilateralne metody i formy z rządem Niemiec nie przynoszą żadnego rezultatu. I jest to wstyd dla rządu Niemiec i również dla Unii Europejskiej.
Villy Søvndal
Thank you very much for the work you are doing. I see you as one of the very strong voices in a period where international rules are eroding very, very quickly, and we need that voice. Thank you also for seeing EU as part of the solution. I'm proud of EU in general on the situation about the human rights situation, with one exception, and that's Palestine. We all know, if we want to know, the situation on the ground.
I visited Palestine in December with a group here from the Parliament, and everyone can see the situation on the ground, not in Gaza where we were not allowed in, but on the West Bank and Jerusalem. You can watch the illegal settlements growing. You can see the settler violence. You can see people, innocent people, farmers being killed. You can see the demolishing of houses in both Jerusalem and in the villages.
You can see the on the land old olive trees being taken away, etc., etc. So my question is, in a situation where you are doing the findings, you're also doing the recommendation, and you even pay the price that you, the people who do this, are attacked, not only from violent local people, but also from international countries in our community. What could we do better from the EU in a situation where we are looking for alliances in the world, also outside of EU, but they consider we have double standards when it comes to this conflict, and I think they're right. What should we do to be placed in the right place in this discussion, which steps could EU take? Thank you.
Thank you. I have three more requests to take the floor, just to inform you: Mr. Tarquinio, Mr. Gheorghe, and Mr. Brown. Then I will close the speakers' list and we continue with Mr. Tarquinio.
Marco Tarquinio
Thank you, Chair, parlo in italiano, grazie. E ringrazio anche lei moltissimo, signor commissario, alto commissario, per ciò che ci ha detto oggi e per lo sguardo limpido che esercita sulla nostra realtà complessa e segnata dal ritorno potente della guerra al centro delle vicende e delle relazioni tra i popoli. I miei colleghi hanno già toccato diversi temi che mi stanno a cuore. Io vorrei soffermarmi su uno che è stato già affrontato sul fronte della dell'intelligenza artificiale, ma lei ha parlato dei droni e dell'utilizzo. Noi abbiamo una retorica, persino nella nostra Europa, che è un presidio forte per i diritti umani, una retorica sull'uso dei droni virtuosi, no?
Anche l'immagine del muro di droni che è stato usato per parlare della difesa necessaria non tiene conto di quanto queste armi siano algide nel calcolo che fanno e nelle vittime che producono.
Ma ci sono anche armi più antiche che vengono dalle guerre del secolo scorso e che tornano nella nostra attualità. Persino nella nostra Europa, negli arsenali della nostra Europa stanno tornando armi che avevamo bandito come mobilitazione della società civile che la politica aveva saputo interpretare. Mi riferisco alle bombe a grappolo e le mine antiuomo che stanno rientrando anche negli arsenali europei. Persino in questo Parlamento queste parole non sono più impossibili, anzi entrano nei documenti ufficiali. Vi sottopongo questo problema che è un problema gravissimo.
E da vecchio giornalista la ringrazio per quello che ha detto sugli agenti stranieri perché il giornale che ho diretto è stato più volte inserito nella lista degli agenti stranieri pericolosi e i miei colleghi e le mie colleghe mandavano inviati non potevano essere ammessi in quel paese dovevano entrare di soppiatto con rischi ancora più gravi. Grazie per saper vedere anche questo.
Geadis Geadi
Thank you very much President, allow me to speak in Greek. Κύριε Ύπατε Αρμοστή, πολύ σωστά είπατε ότι τα ανθρώπινα δικαιώματα δεν είναι θέμα ιδεολογίας. Θα προσθέσω ότι δεν είναι ούτε θέμα συμφερόντων. Είναι αναφαίρετα και ανήκουν σε κάθε άνθρωπο χωρίς διακρίσεις. Είμαι ευρωβουλευτής από την Κύπρο και γνωρίζω πολύ καλά τι σημαίνει παραβίαση των ανθρωπίνων δικαιωμάτων γιατί εμείς σε αντίθεση με πολλούς συναδέλφους μας τη βιώνουμε καθημερινά από το 1974 όταν οι τουρκικές ένοπλες δυνάμεις εισέβαλαν στο νησί μας και εξακολουθούν να το κατέχουν παράνομα.
Μελέτησα την έκθεσή σας, είδα αναφορές στη Γάζα, στο Ισραήλ, το Ιράν, το Λίβανο, το Σουδάν, τη Λαϊκή Δημοκρατία του Κονγκό, τη Μιανμάρ, την Ουκρανία, την Αϊτή, την Υεμένη, ακόμη και την τεχνητή νοημοσύνη. Όμως δεν βρήκα ούτε μία αναφορά στην Κύπρο. Ούτε μία λέξη για τη συνεχιζόμενη κατοχή. Ούτε μία λέξη για τις οικογένειες των αγνοουμένων που εξακολουθούν να αναζητούν την αλήθεια. Ούτε μία λέξη για τις γυναίκες και τα κορίτσια που υπέστησαν βιασμούς και άλλες μορφές σεξουαλικής βίας κατά την εισβολή του 1974.
Ούτε μία λέξη για τους περίπου 200.000 εκτοπισμένους που στερήθηκαν τα σπίτια και τις περιουσίες τους, ούτε στην καταστροφή και αλλοίωση της πολιτιστικής και θρησκευτικής χριστιανικής κληρονομιάς στις κατεχόμενες περιοχές. Ούτε στις επιθέσεις κατά των αγροτών πρόσφατα στη γραμμή κατάπαυσης του πυρός. Κύριε Ύπατε Αρμοστή, εάν τα ανθρώπινα δικαιώματα είναι πραγματικά καθολικά, τότε δεν μπορούν να εφαρμόζονται επιλεκτικά. Η Κύπρος δεν μπορεί να αποτελεί σιωπηλή εξαίρεση. Σας καλώ λοιπόν να διασφαλίσετε ότι η Κύπρος θα έχει τη θέση που της αναλογεί στις εκθέσεις του γραφείου σας γιατί η αξιοπιστία του συστήματος των ανθρωπίνων δικαιωμάτων κρίνεται από το κατά πόσο υπερασπιζόμαστε όλα τα θύματα με συνέπεια χωρίς επιλεκτικότητα και εξαιρέσεις.
Ευχαριστώ.
Grzegorz Braun
Thank you Chair. Mr. Commissioner, I could easily repeat the speech that my most honorable Hungarian colleague gave a few minutes ago about the violations of human rights in Ukraine, only where my colleague mentions Hungarian people, Ukrainian citizens of Hungarian descent, I would ask about Ukrainian citizens of Polish descent.
Because Polish people are also unlawfully and criminally forcibly drafted. There are manhunts in Ukraine for for for soldiers forcibly drafted while Ukrainians well-fed and perfectly fit for army service can be seen can be spotted all over Europe, including Poland obviously. So could you please comment on these human rights violations from the side of the Kiev regime regime? And one one simple question. Do you by any chance know anything about any international investigation of the very well-known crime war crimes in Bucha in Ukraine a few years ago?
Because the name of the place Bucha was mentioned in this house countless countless times. So if there was any international investigation you sir would certainly know something about it. Thank you very much. And in case there is none I call upon you to initiate better late than never international investigation of war crimes in Bucha. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chair, could you please instruct your colleague not to be a boorish bore? Thank you very much.
David McAllister
Interesting Mr. Brand that you've identified rules all of a sudden in this committee. It would be very welcome if you could apply these rules first and foremost to yourself. Mr. Türk, back to you.
Volker Türk
Well first of all many thanks. Interesting exchange and important one. Peut-être juste pour répondre à ce que vous avez demandé sur la nécessité du multilatéralisme. Je suis tout à fait d'accord que ce qui est extrêmement important aussi pour l'Europe c'est de mettre l'accent sur l'universalité du des droits humains. Parce que quelquefois j'ai l'impression aussi dans les dans la présentation de l'Europe à l'extérieur on veut donner l'ex l'impression que ce sont des val des valeurs européennes ou ce sont des des normes européennes mais en fait si on regarde les les droits de l'homme ce sont effectivement des droits universels qui datent de qui sont de longue date d'ailleurs et qui sont nourris par des révolutions françaises, américaines, haïtiennes, par le mouvement de travail, par le féminisme, par la décolonisation, par l'anti-apartheid, l'anti-racisme.
En fait c'est nourri par par quelque chose qui date depuis des siècles. Et et quelquefois on oublie que on a justement ce cadre juridique qui est un un atout de notre civilisation et qu'il faut absolument non seulement préserver mais aussi honorer avec avec une un enthousiasme qui qui date aussi de notre humanité.
Et dans le contexte de l'Alliance mondiale pour les droits humains moi j'aimerais bien commencer une un cercle des philosophes du monde entier pour discuter justement les questions de l'universalisation des droits humains. Et j'avais un entretien très intéressant avec un philosophe sénégalais Souleymane Bachir Diagne qui a écrit beaucoup c'est un un philosophe africain qui parle justement de l'universalisation des droits humains et qui en fait explique très bien comment c'est nourri aussi par les traditions en Afrique. Parce que quelquefois je suis tout à fait d'accord on a l'impression qu'il y a ceux qui disent voilà c'est un outil de l'Ouest c'est c'est une invention de l'Ouest mais ici on voit et si on creuse ça on voit effectivement que c'est vraiment partagé par toutes les traditions par toutes les cultures que c'est quelque chose qui fait partie de notre être et qui fait partie et je pense c'est très important dans le dans le contexte actuel de mettre l'accent là-dessus. On AI because I think there were two questions I mean it's technology and artificial intelligence. For us this is an extremely important topic.
And we have been working on digital technology and artificial intelligence for quite a while including with the big tech companies. And we have in the context of the Pact for the Future that is negotiated by the United Nations two years ago there's a Global Digital Compact that came out of this. And the Global Digital Compact foresaw precisely discussions not only and there is a scientific panel on AI at the global level that was established by the United Nations in fact that panel is going to issue its report pretty soon I think in July. There will also be discussions in Geneva on global governance of artificial intelligence. I think the European example because you have Digital Service Act Digital Market Act you have the AI directive you have actually established an important regulatory framework which hopefully will also influence some of the global developments.
And it's something we certainly always emphasize. But I want to go even beyond this and to say that human rights because of the compulsory I mean they are state obligations so it's clear that human rights also need to be central not only to the development to the use to the design but also then to the selling of digital and digital products. Because sometimes what we keep emphasizing for those who develop them and then sell them is they need to be aware of the type of impact it has including long-term impact when these tools are commercialized and brought to the market. And quite frankly on the on children which you mentioned our worry is precisely the one that in a couple of years down the line a neuroscience will tell us that addictive behavior is essentially socialized through in a certain period of the brain development and we don't want to end up with a generation that is essentially addicted to their phones and doesn't look up anymore. And that's frankly also a danger to democracy.
So I think it's clear that and we that's why we developed these guidelines we are very happy to share them with you from a child safety perspective because it is very important to make these companies and those who put them out on the market responsible for the type of products and ask them for example to have safeguards and guardrails in there so that you don't have addictive behavior as a result scrolling you know the constant scrolling that you see the well whatever causes addiction.
And I, and that's why we, we also came in from, from the perspective of providing these, these guidelines, analyzing it from a human rights perspective. The advantage of human rights is that it's a normative framework. It's an existing normative framework that can be applied both online and offline. When it comes to the use of AI and in the military domain, it's a huge, obviously, a very big concern because we already see the effects as most conflicts today in some way use, well, drones, I mean, but there is also inbuilt AI capabilities. I would hope that there is a worldwide prohibition of the development of lethal autonomous weapons.
I mean, we have advocated for this ourselves because we see that this could be a very slip, again, a very slippery slope where at some stage this type of products could not only cause mass harm, but also be developing their own logic that nobody can control. And it is about, at the end of the day, about legal responsibility, it's about attribution, it's about issues of human agency. And it's absolutely clear, I think we're actually pretty late globally on all of this, I have to say, because these developments are going very fast and they do demand absolutely our attention in the best possible way. On the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I absolutely agree, the centrality of the Universal Declaration. And I think I sometimes hear the, these debates about rules-based order is gone, let's, it's no longer there.
The one thing I can tell you, humanity is gone if you lose the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And I think we need to be very much aware of this because the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as I said, has a much longer history. It is a universal history and that's why this circle of philosophers and thinkers is so important because we need to bring this back, including into the debate, why the consensus within society, the social contract, has to be built on some fundamental standards of, of understanding of, of how we connect with each other, the state, institutions of the state and us and people, but also with nature and the environment. And I, I think that's why we want to use the Global Alliance precisely to build up even awareness in publics at large about the importance and the centrality of human rights. So actually, frankly, we need to have an all-out effort to do this in these times because people are very confused.
There is also, people feel overwhelmed and we, we always want to give them precisely the type of compass that is needed and human rights does offer that. Look, we have, on the minority issues and religion issues inside Ukraine, we have, I have an office in Ukraine since 2014 and our analysis obviously covers, given the obvious because of the invasion and the aggression by the Russian Federation, covers the litany of human rights issues that are related to this, harm to civilian population, civilian infrastructure, treatment of prisoners of war, detainees, the impact on children and the grave violations of child rights, the life under occupation because we have done quite a few reports on what it means to be living under occupation. But we also look at issues of religion and minority rights, so it's part of our monitoring framework and we take up issues with the Ukrainian authorities directly. And we have a very good collaboration with them and they do react, for instance, on collaboration, there were a lot of issues around collaboration that we had to address because we thought that they went too far and we were able, they were listening to us and we were able to change a number of these things.
But it is part and parcel of our monitoring work and our intervention work with the Ukrainian authorities. And if there's any information, please share it with us, we will follow up through our office. Look, on the issue that you raised on issues of dialogue and compensation issues, I mean, obviously this is a bilateral issue, and I would really encourage that this is being dealt with as such. I don't think there's any role for the United Nations. There are standard principles that one could obviously look at, but there is not as such, we are not a court, we are not an enforcement, we are not an entity that plays a role specifically in that regard.
Look, on Palestine, Gaza and West Bank that you mentioned, what I sometimes miss in the European discussion, even at the political level, is a discussion that is based on the impact and the pain and the suffering of the people, not only in Gaza, I mean, obviously in Gaza, I mean, sometimes I have the impression, and I'm very honest with you, of course what happened on the 7th of October, absolutely horrific. And I feel for the Israelis who and their family members, I met a lot of them, I met a lot of the families of the hostages. I see what trauma it has caused. But then I also see that the pain of the Palestinians is not seen. And it's also not seen sometimes in the debate here in Europe.
And there is a dehumanization that goes along with it because ever since the 7th of October, what has been documented is a litany of suffering, of violations, of cruelty that is incredible. So we need to absolutely make sure that the suffering and the pain of everyone is seen, and international law is the guide because there are no exceptions. And I wish sometimes we would bring it back not only to the human level, to the survivors and the victims on all sides, and international law. That is often the best guarantee to avoid double standards or selectivity. So I mentioned on Cyprus, we actually do have a report, I issue a report on Cyprus every year, so I would refer you to that, where we talk about all these various issues.
I'm not doing it every time because that's not the mandate that I was given from the Human Rights Council, but we issue a report every year on Cyprus and the human rights situation in Cyprus. And just to say, my office, I was in Ukraine when we issued a report, a very detailed report on what had happened in Bucha, and I refer you to that. I mean, if anyone wants to read up what we have been able to establish about what happened in Bucha, I can refer you to my report. It took us a long time to verify, monitor, document it. There is a lot of propaganda around it, which is why an objective entity like mine can provide precisely what is important in this regard.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you. We have a very few minutes left. Now urgent follow-up questions or comments. Arkadiusz.
Hey, why not?
Arkadiusz Mularczyk
Panie komisarzu, sprawa braku drogi sądowej dla ofiar drugiej wojny światowej, okay, sprawa braku drogi sądowej dla ofiar drugiej wojny światowej, których w Polsce jeszcze żyje około pięćdziesięciu tysięcy, nie jest sprawą bilateralną, ponieważ mamy do czynienia z sytuacją, gdzie w Unii Europejskiej są ludzie w podeszłym wieku, którzy nie dostali nigdy żadnego zadośćuczynienia od Niemiec za skutki wojny i nie mają prawa drogi sądowej. Jest to naprawdę ewenement, że i Unia Europejska i ONZ zamykają oczy na tą sprawę, nie chcą tej sprawy widzieć, także apeluję do pana, niech pan zaapeluje do rządu Niemiec o podjęcie dialogu w tej sprawie, bo jest to wstyd dla Niemiec i dla ONZ-u i dla Unii Europejskiej. Dziękuję.
David McAllister
Colleagues, I'm sorry, for time reasons we can't have a second round. Can you just be very brief in your precise follow-up questions? Mr. Gadi.
Geadis Geadi
I will be very short. I will speak in Greek. Κύριε Ύπατε Αρμοστή, έχετε πει ότι έχετε εκθέσεις για την Κύπρο, συμφωνώ, όμως έχετε πει ότι δεν υπάρχει σε κάθε έκθεση και διερωτώμαι γιατί σε κάθε έκθεση υπάρχει αναφορά για την Παλαιστίνη, για την Ουκρανία, αλλά όχι για την Κύπρο. Ποια η διαφορά μεταξύ Ουκρανίας και Κύπρου; Ευχαριστώ.
Grzegorz Braun
So, you have just admitted, sir, that there was and there is no international independent investigation because you mention, you refer to your report, with all due respect, you are not a forensic detective, you are not a prosecutor, you are not a cop, so there was and there is none, there is no international independent police investigation in that case. Thank you very much.
Volker Türk
Look, just very quickly, the UN was, the UN Charter was drafted after the Second World War, so the UN is not covering events before its foundation. So that's important to bear in mind. I will decide what I put into the global update because that precisely and goes to that point, I have an independent function and that independent function I will not have anyone interfere with. And I can tell you, when we issue a report, it is done according to a very strict methodology and it establishes the facts. Of course, then it's for courts to decide, but what we do is according to the professionalism that is required by an office of the United Nations in relation to human rights monitoring, documenting and reporting.
Thank you.
David McAllister
Thank you. Mounia, it's up to you to close this meeting. From my behalf already, dear Volker, thank you very much for attending the session. Mounia.
Mounir Satouri
Bien, alors avant de clôturer, j'aimerais exprimer un point de vue personnel et je vais le faire dans le respect le plus total. Beaucoup ici savent combien je déteste le deux poids deux mesures, mais je crois que je déteste tout autant les contre-vérités et le négationnisme. Et dans le cadre de l'agression de la Russie contre l'Ukraine, les victimes des atteintes aux droits humains, c'est d'abord les Ukrainiens et l'agresseur, c'est le régime de Poutine.
Et puis pour la justice, ça serait quand même bien que la communauté internationale trouve le moyen de le traduire devant la Cour pénale internationale. Et c'est aussi pour ça que je soutiens la Cour pénale internationale quand certains, à cause du deux poids deux mesures, hésitent. Merci beaucoup, chers collègues. Nous qui portons le droit humain au cœur de notre engagement, nous savons que le monde aujourd'hui exige de nous un effort et une action le plus efficace possible pour les défendre. L'Alliance mondiale pour les droits humains a vocation à mobiliser toutes les volontés à travers le monde.
Et c'est avec conviction et détermination que nous sommes à vos côtés, Monsieur le Commissaire, cher Volker, pour la faire vivre. Et donc merci pour cet échange, cher David, c'était très important qu'on le fasse et qu'on le fasse de manière conjointe.
David McAllister
Merci, cher Mounir. Any other business on item number 13? That is not the case. The next meetings will be on the 13th and 14th of July, in the afternoon on Monday and Tuesday all day. Thank you, the meeting is closed.