Joint CONT/FISC Exchange of Views with the European Public Prosecutor’s Office (EPPO), the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) and Eurofisc on “Cooperation in the fight against VAT fraud in the EU”
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FISC European Parliament
Ihren Sitzungen folgenLaura Kövesi
Thank you very much. Honorable members of the European Parliament, dear colleagues, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for this opportunity to exchange views on the fight against VAT fraud in the EU. The European Public Prosecutor's Office would highly welcome this to become a regular exercise. Last year, I came to ring the alarm bell.
VAT fraud in the EU is huge. It is huge because organized crime groups have been allowed to turn it into one of their most profitable industries. This can no longer be ignored and we need to react. By the end of last year, we had almost 1,000 VAT fraud cases. The total damage under investigation in these cases amounted to more than 45 billion euro.
This included VAT fraud linked to customs fraud, which should be of maximum concern for the EU budgetary authority.
To me, this is the most pressing question when it comes to protecting the EU budget today. How big is the customs gap in the EU? How come nobody knows? How much customs fraud has been going on for decades undetected? How much EU revenue was due but has not been collected and then had to be paid by taxpayers?
What kind of system is it in which if you detect and report customs fraud, you are not helped to fight those who cause it, but hammered with administrative recovery measures?
It is neither reasonable nor efficient. Since the establishment of the EPPO, it can no longer be justified. We need to change it. There is too much talk about VAT and customs fraud in way too abstract terms. We need to get concrete, practical.
I am confident that with the new Director-General of OLAF, my friend Peter, this will become the new way in Brussels too. I would like to remind everyone that fraud, like any crime, is a human activity. There are concrete people behind each euro stolen from the EU budget.
They have names and addresses. So we can get to them. You can talk prevention and precautionary measures all you like, once hands-on, extremely powerful criminals groups get into the mix, your main tool is criminal justice. Have national tax authorities started to change their mindset? Here and there a little, too little and way too slow.
Has the Commission made the fight against VAT fraud its priority?
As far I can tell you, not yet. Is customs fraud considered a fundamental issue when it comes to protecting the EU budget? The fact that I can even ask this question is an answer in itself. Still, there has been progress. We are impatiently waiting for the revision of the Eurofisc regulation to enter into force and I would like to thank the Commission, the Parliament and the member states for making our life easier when accessing the data that is crucial for our investigations.
In the meantime, with our colleagues from Eurofisc and from OLAF, we will continue to do our job the best we can. Thank you for your attention.
Pasquale Tridico
Thank you, Laura, for your work. Now, it was just mentioned, we move to Mr. Peter Clement. Please, Peter, the floor is yours for seven minutes.
Petr Klement
Thank you, thank you for the floor, esteemed Chairman and honorable members.
Thank you for the invitation to this hearing. As a former European prosecutor, I fully agree with Laura that the main tool to make out the persons behind large-scale VAT fraud is criminal law. And we now have the EPPO as independent, efficient and central institution in that regard. We also have to focus on the money, on the system. And the money is also the reason why the criminals are also in this business.
As the Director-General of OLAF, my main task is the protection of the EU budget. And within the topic of this hearing, the EU revenues from customs fraud and related unpaid VAT.
I have committed to protect the EU budget. Last year, OLAF recommended measures addressed to Member States to protect the EU budget from customs fraud in the amount of approximately 750 million euro. To have an order of magnitude, in order to generate a similar impact to EU budget through the VAT-based own resource alone, there would have to be losses on VAT of more than 200 billion euros. This is because only about 0.3% from the VAT income goes to EU budget.
Let me now outline the systemic role of OLAF in the fight against VAT fraud. Our focus is customs-related VAT fraud. When a product enters the EU market, VAT is calculated based on the declared value plus customs duties plus anti-dumping duties, if appropriate. So when a lower value is declared, or goods are not declared, or when a false origin is declared, then there are also losses on VAT.
One false customs declaration can therefore generate losses both in customs duties and in import VAT. In many cases, this is also, this also becomes the starting point for wider VAT fraud schemes. Detection as early as possible is essential and OLAF is a key player here. We have access to more trade and customs data than individual member states and have specialized experts and tools to analyze all of this.
It would be a cost-efficient investment for the EU budget and revenues to invest more in OLAF. We then have to see whether it is an irregularity or a fraud in the sense of criminal law. To do that, we take some further steps. We need to prove that there is an undervaluation, so we developed with the JRC a system of fair prices. We have administrative cooperation with third countries to identify the correct origin of products.
When the importer declares that the Member State of destination of a product is different than a Member State of entry, we need to verify that VAT has actually been declared at that destination. We must also identify when importers falsely declare that the goods are in transit to a customs office of another Member State. In order to do all of that, timely access to reliable information is essential.
We welcome the Parliament's support for the revision of Regulation 904/1010 on OLAF and EPPO access to Eurofisc VAT customs-related data. OLAF can identify fraud patterns across jurisdictions, connecting intelligence and data that may appear limited when viewed only from a narrow national perspective. We do this very well with Eurofisc, and I thank Mrs. Marinelli for the excellent cooperation. Thank you.
Depending on the circumstances, we can recommend national customs and tax authorities administrative measures and or report to the European Public Prosecutor's Office. Let me give an example on a topical issue: imported parcels sold through the internet to consumers with a declared value of less than 150 euro. No customs duties due and VAT to be paid in one single EU country.
OLAF's cooperation with national authorities revealed that a network of economic operators both declared a lower value of the goods and sent them to businesses, not to final consumers. OLAF was able to establish about 66 euro million of import duties evaded and 133 euro million of VAT evaded. We requested Member States to take precautionary measures and to recover these amounts by administrative means. And we reported the case to EPPO and are discussing how to support the criminal investigation with our expertise.
As soon as I started at OLAF, I highlighted the importance of cooperating with EPPO. We are now working together to find and to improve appropriate mechanisms so that the relevant information reaches EPPO as early as possible and in turn OLAF investigative works informs and enables OLAF to target its further support activities. OLAF then also has to go after the money with customs and tax authorities in order to prevent losses and recovery to the EU budget.
At national level tax administration and customs authorities frequently work with prosecution to ensure preventive administrative measures are taken in time. There is a reason, there is no reason why it cannot work at EU level. Thank you and I look forward to your comments.
Pasquale Tridico
Thank you Mr. Clement and now we move to Madame Marina Marinelič the network of Eurofisc.
Marina Marinelič
Thank you. Distinguished members of European Parliament, ladies and gentlemen, it is a great honor to address you today.
I would like to begin with a brief overview of Eurofisc and its role. So Eurofisc is a cooperation network established in 2010, specifically designed to combat cross-border VAT fraud. It acts as dedicated early warning mechanism for the swift multilateral exchange, joint processing and analyzing of targeted information among 27 member states.
Currently, Eurofisc operates through three operational working fields managed by coordinators focusing on specific fraudulent activities. Therefore, we have working field one focusing on missing trader intra-community fraud, so MTIC fraud, and the abuse of custom procedure specifically CP42. Working field two targets VAT fraud related to means of transports, that means cars, boats and planes. And working field five, e-commerce, dedicated to monitor B2C e-commerce transactions and related fraud.
This field is significantly supported by the CESOP, so Central Electronic System of Payment information database, which stores cross-border payments data to detect abuse of the VAT system in the context of e-commerce, so B2C transactions. Eurofisc remains an administrative entity and its effectiveness relies on the active participation of its Eurofisc liaison officials who are experts in fighting VAT fraud. Also, TNA, Eurofisc are supported by tools like TNA, Transaction Network Analysis, and CESOP.
The TNA tool has significantly modernized the operations of Eurofisc and has become indispensable for anti-fraud experts. TNA automates the collection of targeted information from the VIES system and visualizes suspicious networks without manual intervention. This functionality drastically accelerates the identification of fraud chains and the swiftness of information exchange.
In 2023, within TNA, 15.1 billion euros in identified fraudulent transactions were detected, with more than 4,500 traders deregistered in TNA having fraudulent qualification, so were identified by Member States to be somehow involved in fraudulent activities. CESOP, which went live in early 2024, to provide anti-fraud experts with detailed data on cross-border payments. In the coming period, CESOP will play a key role in the effective fight against VAT fraud in the e-commerce sector by serving as a central database for payment data analysis to identify risk payment flows and determine how the collected data can be utilized to its fullest potential. Of course, we are facing some challenges in this fight against VAT fraud.
Globalization of fraud. VAT fraud is no longer limited to a single Member State or even the EU. It is a globalized phenomenon where fraudulent chains travel out of the EU and back in, frequently involving third countries. Speed and volume. The ongoing digitalization of transactions has significantly increased the speed at which fraud can occur.
Services play an increasingly dominant role in fraud networks, which are particularly challenging. Furthermore, the massive volume traded, particularly regarding imports, CP42 and the drop shipping, create a significant burden on enforcement authorities. Institutional and procedural limits. Eurofisc as an administrative entity, which can limit its effectiveness against sophisticated criminal groups that use VAT fraud to maximize profits and launder funds. Enforcement is further slowed by lengthy procedures both within and between countries.
Multi-tax and recovery barriers. So authorities often face multi-tax fraud scenarios where they lack the specific competence or awareness for all involved taxes, making national level cooperation difficult. A significant challenge with recovery issues is the lack of information from third countries, which limits the ability of anti-fraud experts to follow risky transaction past the point where an intra-community delivery is declared. Proactive prevention upon suspicion of a fraud.
The need for quick VAT suspension to stop fraudulent activities before significant revenue is lost. VAT deregistration or invalidation differs between Member States based on legal framework. To overcome these barriers, a more targeted and international approach is required. Cross-agency cooperation. There is a need for enhanced cooperation between fiscal authorities and law enforcement bodies, including fiscal police, EPPO and OLAF.
Global standards beyond the EU. Further cooperation is needed.
The exchange of best practices and information should be considered as a measure to make it more difficult to carry out fraudulent activities. Quick VAT number suspension followed by swift blocking of financial funds and or confiscation measures. Any delay in suspending a fraudulent VAT number allows the fraud to continue. Nowadays, even after a trader is deregistered from VAT, it can still send out invoices by applying margin scheme or fictitious domestic invoices.
Its remaining infrastructure, such as an active bank account, storage facilities or transportation vehicles, continue to be used as long as possible. Only complete measures can stop the fraud and prevent new ones. Investing in IT tools. Continuous and substantial investment in advanced IT tools, such as TNA and CESOP and AI technologies, as well as their ongoing improvement, is essential to support Member States in preventing, detecting and combating fraud at the earliest possible stage.
Eurofisc plays a pivotal role as an early warning mechanism, providing quick and targeted information at the earliest stage of detecting potential fraud. Combining Eurofisc administrative data with OLAF's data and with EPPO's judicial actions creates a stronger deterrent against organized crime.
The implication of recent changes in VIES will provide more information on registration data and all information will be stored in the central VIES database, providing the possibility to analyze traders and intra-community transactions through advanced analytical tools at EU level. I would like to conclude by stating that the establishment of Eurofisc network has been a significant milestone in strengthening administrative cooperation and combating organized VAT fraud across the European Union. Over the past 15 years, our network has evolved substantially, allowing us to gain a profound understanding of several modus operandi used by the fraudsters.
We now have access to more data than ever before, which is crucial for detecting fraud at the earliest possible stage. Our specialized tools, which have been designed for this continuous fight, improve regularly, and our dedicated operational teams do a great job every day by working on further updates in order to increase detection ratio. Last but not least, the recent legal changes and cross-agency cooperation will allow us to further gain in efficiency and loss prevention. Nevertheless, despite this progress, we must remain committed to innovation and broadening our views. Now we will redouble our efforts to further close the gap on fraud.
Pasquale Tridico
Thank you very much, Madame Marinelič. And now we move to our colleague for the questions, comments for two minutes, and then you will have up to three minutes to answer the comments and the question. Starting from EPP, from FISC, Luděk Niedermayer. Please, Luděk.
Luděk Niedermayer
Thank you Mr. President and thanks for very good presentation. I guess there was quite a lot of urgency in that and it was not so much different compared to when we start to deal with this issue and I am here already ten years and I am somehow associated with EP tax agendas, so one concern is that it seems that urgency is still very high. But to be concrete, what was interesting that in the morning we were discussing EPRS study on use of reverse charge. And it was interesting comparison with what you say because basically the study says, you know, this is good tool, member states are very happy about it, this is significantly reducing the the tax fraud, but at the same time they were not able to provide the data.
So one can have a hypothesis while in the case when VAT is fully applied we know that fraud has happened, in the case of reverse charge that is closer to sales tax we don't know that fraud has happened and it make the tax administrations pretty pretty happy or more happier I would say. So my question basically is because conclusion of the study is that okay so why don't we combine reverse charge and the ViDA digitalization and all together it will work pretty well. But it sounds a little bit a little bit unclear to me. So I wonder to which extent you believe that digitalization is the way how to how to deal with the situation. So for example obligatory e-invoicing for all the VAT transactions across the across the EU.
Digitalization of customs, for example, in the customs area, matching between the orders and the the packages that will actually that could to some extent reduce the understating of the costs. If this is the main sale of the direction of the sale, or if we need to combine much more different measures how to reduce the frauds. But then I would like to see what are the three or five most important because for me, it seems to me that digitalization combined with much quicker use of the data, much stronger cooperation between the the member states is something that can deliver.
But I was really, I must say, a bit confused after hearing the presentation in the morning.
Now, do you want to start?
Laura Kövesi
Yes, okay. Thank you very much for your question. I think digitalization is very good and the new ViDA package and e-invoice is very good, but still is not the safest way to protect the budget.
We have few member states who already implemented this package with e-invoice and still we have a lot of cases ongoing. Why? Because one of the main part of the VAT fraud is not only when you declare a lower amount of goods of the money. The most often is non-declaration. If it's non-declaration, this cannot be identified in the system.
So if you don't put your invoice in the system, no one will know about this. So there one of the typology that is very often is non-declaration and in this case the digitalization and the package is not helpful. But anyway, it's a step further and it's a good way in order to cross-check the informations from different member states when it's about this. And I like that everyone speaks about digitalization and using artificial intelligence in our activity.
This is very welcome. First, we need the legislation. We need a strong legal framework in order to protect the personal data and operational data to be sure that we don't put there information that cannot be used. And second, without proper tools, you cannot you cannot work. Just to give you an examples, we see in our cases that the criminals are using artificial intelligence in order to make thousand of transactions in the banking system in order to avoid the obligations for reporting, okay?
But we as law enforcement, we don't have the legal framework, we don't have the tools, and most important, we don't have the budget. I like very much and I will welcome any initiative for digitalization, but with less budget that EPPO had in the last years, we never received anything more in order to develop such tools.
Petr Klement
Yes, thank you. Reverse charge can be, can be effective in reducing fraud in specific sectors.
However, fraudsters, the criminals, those who commit crime and cause irregularities, they adapt and shift to other sectors, that's also for sure. They shift to other jurisdictions, they invent new fraud schemes. It can also reduce some, some of the indicators used to detect fraud. The ViDA package implementation, it will be of added value, I'm sure about it. It will be, it will be good for e-invoicing through e-invoicing, real-time reporting, advanced analysis and improved anti-fraud data sharing.
I think that we can all speak about two things, that there should be trust and exchange of information and timely exchange of information.
This is becoming a cliché. To what Laura Kövesi has said, I would add that it is not only data protection, but it's also obligatory contributing to certain databases, obligatory using them, because we can have databases and we do have. In my view, we have too many, but some of them lack from adequate volume of data. As for Eurofisc, we are concentrated on providing Eurofisc with risk information that it derives from its work on customs matters of OLAF. The risk information is precious for tax authorities.
We have other joint efforts. We actively contribute to multiple Eurofisc working fields like MTIC fraud and customs procedure 42, VAT fraud in vehicles and e-commerce. But I think that our colleague from Eurofisc could comment on that as well. Thank you.
Marina Marinelič
Thank you. Well, we live in a digital era. We really need to adapt and I think e-invoicing innovations and investment in IT tools can support this. Of course, fraudsters will always find a way how to find a new fraud scheme, a new way of doing this fraud. But we have to be proactive and when especially when we are speaking about VAT fraud, they occur very fast.
They we also need to be very fast. So in that way, ViDA package, so having information already on time can help us.
Of course, it's now up to us to find the right and appropriate analytical tools to already, let's say, try to anticipate probable fraudster activities and try to stop them on time. So I think, as again, Eurofisc being at this first stage of potential risk analysis and potential risk fraud prevention can play a great role.
And yes, having this information from e-invoicing on time will be a significant added value. But still, of course, we are aware that fraudsters will find a way how to avoid this system. And that means that we need to be also one step ahead and try to prevent it by using all tools available. Thank you.
Pasquale Tridico
Thank you. Thank you, Marina. Now we move to Patches, both FISC and CONT. I would ask Pierre, please. And then Sanchez, please.
Pierre Pimpie
Donc je précise que c'est en français, voilà. Alors, alors en fait, je voudrais savoir si vous rencontrez des freins dans vos actions.
Donc, donc si les échanges que vous avez avec les services des différents États sont suffisamment fiables, si ça se fait vite, là. Et puis je voudrais savoir comment se chevauchent vos actions, donc avec celles des services de ces États, parce que le système en gros n'est pas si simple. Donc je voudrais savoir si ça fonctionne de façon fluide. Voilà.
Julien Sanchez
Bien merci, bonjour à tous. Je souhaiterais commencer par un constat simple.
La fraude à la TVA n'est plus un simple problème fiscal, elle est devenue l'une des principales sources du financement du crime organisé en Europe. Cette question m'a mobilisé lorsque j'étais rapporteur du rapport sur la protection des intérêts financiers de l'Union. Les auditions que nous avons menées ont montré que les réseaux criminels considèrent aujourd'hui la fraude à la TVA comme une activité à haut rendement, à faible risque et extrêmement lucrative. Face à de tels montants, il n'est plus possible de parler de fraude résiduelle ou marginale. Nous sommes confrontés à une menace systémique pour les finances publiques européennes.
Je crois que vous l'avez rappelé, ce chiffre dépasse aujourd'hui 45 milliards d'euros et continue d'augmenter, Madame Kövesi.
Par ailleurs, Eurofisc a identifié plus de 6 000 fraudeurs et détecté 14 milliards d'euros de transactions frauduleuses ou suspectes en une seule année. Donc il faut être lucide. Lorsque des organisations criminelles sont capables de détourner des dizaines de milliards d'euros, nous ne sommes plus face à quelques fraudeurs isolés. On est confronté à de véritables entreprises criminelles transnationales qui exploitent méthodiquement les failles de notre système fiscal.
Et on pourrait parler d'ailleurs de plusieurs problèmes spécifiques comme ceux des ports et des contrôles dans les ports qui sont un vrai sujet, mais il y en a beaucoup d'autres. Et pendant que nos administrations échangent des formulaires, les fraudeurs déplacent leurs activités d'un État membre à l'autre, blanchissent leurs profits et disparaissent avant même que les autorités aient accès aux données nécessaires pour intervenir. Donc moi j'aurais deux questions. La première c'est, je pense que vous vous battez avec beaucoup d'énergie et je vous en félicite, mais aujourd'hui les moyens actuellement mis à disposition, à votre disposition, ne sont pas proportionnés. Donc que vous faudrait-il et que réclamez-vous précisément ?
Et deuxième question, vous avez dû suivre je pense dans le cadre du cadre financier pluriannuel le débat sur les ressources propres.
On parle beaucoup de créer de nouvelles taxes, de nouvelles recettes financières pour le budget de l'Union européenne. Ne pensez-vous pas qu'en allant chercher l'argent de la fraude on réglerait déjà une partie du problème et que cet argent-là il permettrait d'éviter de créer de nouvelles ressources propres ? Merci.
Laura Kövesi
What we would need to be more efficient, I will and I will try to reply to both questions in the same time, but if I focus too much on obstacles I will spend few hours. So what we need to be more efficient: more detection and reporting from the tax authorities.
We need dedicated police officers and tax investigators to work in EPPO cases in the member states. We need to increase the capacity of EPPO and Europol to analyze the data because we sit on a mountain of information. We have more than 2,000 terabytes of information that we collect in our activity. We need adequate resources at EPPO, and here I'm speaking about the number of European delegated prosecutors.
As I said in my speech, I really welcome the fact that we will have access to databases, but the bad news is that we don't have money to connect ourselves to these databases because on the time, especially in the last period of time, EPPO was under-resourced. From the legislative perspective, we would need a revision of EPPO regulation as soon as possible and to remove the obstacles in Europol mandate on data sharing and analysis. And because you spoke and spotted very well the port controls, we see this.
We see that organized criminal groups, especially from third countries, and I refer to some organized criminal groups from China, they have control on some of some borders. And indeed, when we speak about frauds in the EU, everyone is concentrating on the expenditure. But when we speak about revenue, we have the VAT and customs. And here, if we concentrate our efforts to reduce the gap of VAT and to make more investigations, this will be great. Just to give you an example, in one of our cases that we have, Calypso case in Piraeus port last year, an organized criminal group created damages of 800 million euros, VAT fraud and custom fraud.
And if we don't take all the measures in all the harbors, we will have this waterbed effect because there are two effects that we saw after our intervention in the port.
And here in a bracket, there were some administrative measures that didn't have any effect. But after our action day, when we seized 2,400 containers and we found 2.5 million euros in cash in the offices of custom officers and brokers, we saw two big effects. The incomes for the budget of Greece via custom declaration increased exponentially, and this is something that the Minister of Finance from Greece already confirmed. And second, we saw that the criminal organized groups moved their criminal activities to the other ports, where we have to be ready.
Petr Klement
Yeah, thank you very much for that, Peter.
Thank you, thank you for the floor. I think that you have outlined the situation very well. I'm proud that OLAF could be a part of the Operation Calypso and also contributed by analyzing the patterns and of the situation and the files which we received from the data which we received from EPPO, and I thank you for that.
As for the OLAF role and mandate, I think it should be clarified that OLAF mandate to investigate VAT stems from the OLAF regulation, so-called OLAF regulation 883. Regulation 904/2010 gives Eurofisc the leading role in administrative cooperation in the fight against VAT fraud.
OLAF has a limited role there in coordination of the activities of Member States, which is contrary to its role in customs matters where the Regulation 515 from 1997 gives OLAF the mandate to implement administrative cooperation together with the Member States' customs authorities. So in this, in this framework, OLAF VAT activities focus on the detection and investigation on customs-related VAT evasion, on the VAT on import.
It is a VAT which is inextricably linked to VAT to to the customs operations. So this is as for the coordinative and mutual assistance role which OLAF mediates and I think that we can demonstrate cases and operations of this kind for example the NOXIA 2 case which was a mixture of cargo of various nature pesticides drug precursors and and others which is also depicting the reality of today mixture of activities mixture of irregularities illicit or illicit goods and legal consignments. Now what are the challenges?
I think that many of them have been mentioned: detecting fraudulent patterns at early stage and rapidly adopting precautionary measures to deter such activities. I can say that OLAF can significantly contribute in monitoring of the trade itself and particular containers, consignments and shipments, and I can also say that such an expertise is unique on the EU level, on which we agreed also by the way with Europol. There are incomplete customs and VAT data on at EU level as well. There's a massive inflow of e-commerce goods as described many, many times. There are loopholes in the systems of exchange of information.
I spoke about the incomplete data sets in certain databases and sometimes too many databases. And if the member states, with all respect, do not contribute and do not send data to the databases, many times there's no sanction for it. We shall also encourage the cross-border dissemination of information and guiding operators to a compliance zone. We shall also ensure a level playing field for economic operators in the EU single market.
But as for our activities, we try hard and we cooperate well with Eurofisc. We are working to improve the exchange of rapid information about potentially concerned companies that can be flagged in Eurofisc's systems for the adoption of preventive measures.
We have also started talks with EPPO identifying particular fields and particular modi operandi in which we could coordinate our activities for the benefit of the EPPO investigations, the large operations, and also ensuring that a holistic approach is taken. Thank you.
Marina Marinelič
Thank you. Well, from Eurofisc being an administrative network, I think we are aware that we are limited to a certain point. We are doing our best in, as I said, being this first risk signal, risk detection, exchanging quick sharing information.
But when it comes to organized crime involving different tax and also, as you mentioned, money laundering, we see that cooperation, cross-agency cooperation is highly welcomed and needed. Also, this prevention and of course analysis that Eurofisc can benefit with exchange of information is also crucial.
And that's why this investment in IT tools that I mentioned, like TNA and CESOP, is added value to Member States to also enrich their risk national risk analysis system and really go vice versa. So, not only having this information from Eurofisc, but also national tax administrations in their daily work, they see and they can see something that Eurofisc is missing and they can feed this information, which is also very, very important.
So, as I said, as an administrative network, we see that this organized VAT frauds go beyond only tax crimes. So this cooperation is highly welcomed and needed, and I am sure that Member States are also focused on that. Thank you.
Pasquale Tridico
Thank you. And now we move to other questions from ECR, Mr. Dick-Eriksson and Mr. Serban-Dimitrie Sturdza. Please, sir.
Şerban Dimitrie Sturdza
Thank you very much. I speak in French, as my colleague Mr. Sanchez. Et j'ai une question à adresser à Madame Kövesi. Chère Madame Kövesi, il est désormais évident que la fraude à la TVA n'est plus une simple affaire d'évasion fiscale.
C'est de la criminalité organisée. À l'échelle européenne, le Parquet européen, EPPO, enquête sur des fraudes à la TVA et aux droits de douane représentant un préjudice estimé à plus de 45 milliards d'euros. Pour les citoyens roumains, lorsqu'on leur parle de la TVA, ils pensent avant tout à la hausse des prix, à la pression sur le budget des familles et aux difficultés auxquelles sont confrontées les entreprises qui respectent les règles.
Pourtant, les chiffres révèlent une autre réalité : une partie des ressources qui devraient financer les routes, les hôpitaux, les écoles ou contribuer à la réduction des déficits publics est détournée par des réseaux criminels transfrontaliers. Et j'ai deux questions précises à vous adresser, Madame Kövesi. Au regard de votre expérience, quel est aujourd'hui le principal maillon faible qui permet à ces mécanismes de fraude à la TVA de perdurer ?
S'agit-il de l'absence d'échange en temps réel des données fiscales et douanières, du manque d'enquêteurs spécialisés dans certains États membres, des difficultés à recouvrer les avoirs criminels ou bien de certaines faiblesses inhérentes au système de la TVA lui-même ? Enfin, quelle serait selon vous la mesure concrète la plus efficace que l'Union européenne pourrait adopter pour permettre au Parquet européen et aux autorités nationales de démanteler ces réseaux plus rapidement avant que les fonds détournés ne disparaissent au-delà des frontières ? Je vous remercie.
Laura Kövesi
Thank you for your question. Indeed, unfortunately when we speak about Romania, the VAT gap is one of the biggest in the member states.
And indeed, if we reduce this gap, there will be more money in the budget. And EPPO can do this because what we are doing is to fight with organized criminal groups that we see in the last period of time they reshuffle their activities and they move from the classical drug trafficking, human trafficking to the VAT carousel fraud. Why? Because it's less risky and unfortunately in some member states this was not a priority. This is why with EPPO we can say that we discovered a new continent of crime.
You already flagged some issues that are here, but if you ask me, there are a lot of things that can be changed.
We have a lot of bodies, institutions, agencies, law enforcement in the member states at EU level. My reply would be easy: willingness and all of us to do our job. I heard in the last, I am a prosecutor since more than 30 years and I heard that administrative measures and prevention will save us. After 30 years, we are in the same point with damages only from VAT more than 50 billion euros in each year. You cannot take out these criminal organizations that become grower, that become stronger and more powerful defrauding our budget with prevention.
We have to take them out from the street and this is what EPPO is doing.
Petr Klement
Well, I think that the question was addressed to Madame Kövesi, but let me comment on it from a little bit broader perspective.
First of all, fighting fraud is always a priority, and I believe that in the context it has moved up to the list of priorities also of the Commission. The broader perspective always discussed, for example, in ECOFIN, is that if the Member States would agree to replace the temporary system for the intra-community VAT from the beginning of the 90s with a definitive one, where the responsibility to pay the VAT would be with the seller, this would remove the key feature that makes classic missing trader intra-community fraud possible.
I'm sure and from my quite a long career of of prosecutor I'm more than sure that the fraudsters will always adapt and I think that Madame Marinelli also flagged that that there will be new and new and new models and modi operandi the fraudsters will take. We shall not stop that's for sure. In my view and I've never said that the administrative measures will save us. I think that the only only way how we can protect our trade our lifestyle and our way how we live in Europe in fact is not only exchanging information and and also not only handcuff people.
I think that we have to take a holistic approach. We shall think about the system itself first, and if we take an action, we can learn from the member states. We do not have to reinvent the wheel. There are systems of cooperation of tax administration, of administrative authorities and prosecution, and we definitely do not have to go too far. Let me give an example of the Special Tax Inspectorate and the Public Prosecutor's Office of Belgium, the country where we are sitting.
So they've moved away from the historical firewalls.
Belgium now operates under a system of structural consultation. Tax authorities must report serious organized fraud to prosecutor, but they do not pause their administrative recovery work, of course. There are other and many examples of such a cooperation. I could flag some of them, for example, the Dutch way, when the most appropriate and most effective measure is taken as a priority.
But there are many other ways and other examples of that. But the system itself, I think that is for another meeting, possibly also in this distinguished grounds, to speak about how truly lift off one of the elements which actually makes this kind of fraud possible. Thank you.
Marina Marinelič
Well, it was very interesting, yes, to hear the answers and something that is also very important and we use it in Eurofisc a lot and this is sharing best practice. So if a member state really has a good way of practicing, of operational work done and showing good results, they share their experience with other member states and that can also benefit for member states to use that experience and try to do the same in their country. But also having this, well, let's say management level to be aware of importance of fighting cross-border VAT fraud. So this is also important for saving as well as national budget but EU revenues as well.
Siegbert Frank Droese
Thank you, Chair. I will speak German. Ja, ich danke sehr für die eindrucksvollen Zahlen und die Ausführungen zu Ihrer Arbeit. Ich gestatte mir mal zuerst auf Frau Kövesi einzugehen. Wir hatten uns ja kennengelernt kurz vor Ihrer Berufung damals noch in Rumänien.
Ich war Bundestagsabgeordneter. Wir haben ja Ihre Berufung, glaube ich, auch aus Deutschland stark unterstützt. Schade, dass wir uns jetzt erst wiedersehen, dass in der Zeit, in der Ihr Mandat zu Ende geht. Ich fand das gut, was Sie ausgeführt haben, dass Sie gerne öfters kommen würden wollen.
Das ist ja vielleicht eine Hypothese hier für den für den Ausschuss. Das kann ja der Ausschuss entsprechend entscheiden. Und ich danke Ihnen auch für Ihre klaren Worte, ne? Das ist glaube ich notwendig, dass das so die Politik auch hört, was Ihre Arbeit ist und wo die Probleme liegen. Und ich denke, dass Sie Ihrer Behörde als Chefin eine wirklich eine große Spur hinterlassen haben in dem Sinne.
Ich hoffe, dass Ihr Nachfolger das dann entsprechend ausfüllen kann, der zufälligerweise aus meinem Heimatland kommt. Frau Kövesi, also Mehrwertsteuerbetrug ist ein ernstes Problem.
Sie sind alle darauf eingegangen. Eine wirksame Zusammenarbeit grenzüberschreitend ist logischerweise unerlässlich angesichts der bereits bestehenden Kooperationsmechanismen zwischen den nationalen Behörden. Können Sie mir mal vielleicht ein paar Beispiele nennen aus Ihrer zurückliegenden Tätigkeit, bei denen die Beteiligung der Europäischen Staatsanwaltschaft Ergebnisse ermöglicht hat, die von den nationalen Behörden alleine nicht hätten erreicht werden können? Und eine Frage an Frau Marinelič. Wie gestaltet sich denn die Zusammenarbeit beispielsweise mit meiner Heimat, mit Deutschland, mit den deutschen Behörden?
Deutschland ist ja dafür bekannt, dass wir sehr, sehr bürokratisch sind, in der Regel recht langsam sind. Und es ist ja von Ihnen dargestellt worden, dass wir natürlich im digitalen Zeitalter Verbrecher haben, die immer on the top sind, also sehr modern, sehr fortschrittlich agieren.
Sie sprachen davon, dass Sie eben auch schnelles Handeln benötigen. Und Deutschland kommt ja noch dazu, dass wir eben ein föderaler Staat sind, 16 Landesbehörden auch noch Mitspracherecht haben. Ich könnte mir das vorstellen, dass das für die Zusammenarbeit sehr schwierig ist.
Daher die Frage, wie gestaltet sich denn die Zusammenarbeit von Ihnen, von Eurofisc mit den deutschen Behörden? Vielen Dank.
Laura Kövesi
Thank you for your question, and I will give you two examples which illustrates very well the added value of the EPPO. When I worked in my, in Romania, the country that I know best, and we had these cases with cross-border dimension, we never had a reply in few hours or in few days. All the time we had to wait for months. But the main added value of the EPPO is not only that we get the information very fast. It's that we have this helicopter view and we see what it's happening everywhere inside of EPPO's zone.
And this is why I said we discovered a new continent of crime. Before EPPO, everyone saw at national level, very fragmented, what it's happening. And the organized criminals, they took advantage of this and they were very flexible, they moved here and there.
Admiral case, very easy. Started in Portugal. A civil servant saw a company with incomes of 200 million euros in one year with two employees. And said something is fishy. That civil servant went to the national prosecutors and they said I don't see any damage in Portugal so I will not open the investigation.
But they saw that the money came in Portugal through other member states. So they came with the case in EPPO.
And with the system that we have created and we put in place with financial investigators and case analysts at central level in EPPO, we could connect the dots. So we discover 9,000 companies involved in a huge fraudulent scheme who created damages than more 2.2 billion euros in all the member states, in all the member states. This is why I used to say there is no clean country. This kind of cases would have not been possible to be discovered without EPPO and very difficult to investigate without EPPO. And in the end we discovered that these five criminal organizations that we investigated they created also damages in Portugal of 80 million euros.
Now we have the first conviction in the first instance in the court and when the judgment will be definitive, we can say that we put 80 million euro in the budget of Portugal. And the second example is when we had searches to some members of Italian mafia in Italy, we found out during the searches that they traveled in Romania. And in few hours, we were able, with EPPO, inside of EPPO, in the way how we work in EPPO, to seize the banking accounts in Romania in few hours. This was never been possible without EPPO.
I think is the excellent tool and is the main important institution that has been created in the last years in Europe when it's about to fight against organized crime.
Pasquale Tridico
Thank you Laura, yeah, we share this view at least here at the presidency. Marina, do you want to address the question?
Marina Marinelič
Yes, thank you. As you know and repeated, I will repeat once again, Eurofisc is really a network for multilateral swift exchange of targeted information.
So that means that these information are provided by Member States at earliest stage possible. Sometimes, yes, we can see that there are some differences in processing this information between Member States regarding on their national, well, way of working and different kind of, as you mentioned, in Germany, different departments and regions. But ELOs, so Eurofisc Liaison Officials, are really experts in VAT fraud and they know that when receiving risk alerts from Eurofisc, from TNA, they know that these information need to be addressed as quickly as possible.
Also we try within Eurofisc to monitor this process and see whether there are some room for improvements of course between Member States and try to as I said sharing best practice to show other Member States how this process could be even faster and easier.
This kind of expertise coming from Eurofisc, it was really investment in education and way of working. And now really saying that Eurofisc is quick exchange of this first signals, this first risk alerts is crucial for other member states to gain information on time and to be able to react on time. So I would say that member states are very well aware of this and they are really doing their best to provide this information as quickly as possible. Thank you.
Pasquale Tridico
Thank you, Marina. I just wonder for Laura, I will just pose a last question to close this very interesting long morning, not only with this last session, but very interesting reports by our distinguished speaker now and as well before in the previous session. I wonder whether the e-commerce, Laura, in the e-commerce there is as well the criminal organization and how big this is. We know that the criminal organization concerning VAT fraud is mostly in traditional business, but I wonder whether they entered as well this new or relatively new business. Thank you.
Laura Kövesi
Thank you for your question. Indeed, we are very, we have a lot of investigation regarding the e-commerce, especially because we saw that the criminal organizations have created an online platforms in order to sell the goods and also to have control. When you go with a search, they will show you the document that they want to show you. But the commerce on e-platforms is huge and we see that in some e-platforms they have huge sales, but they never declare the VAT. And there are billions of euros that are stolen.
The legislation has been improved in 2021, and e-platforms have an obligation to collect and to pay the VAT. So we have opened few investigations, they are ongoing, but we are looking very carefully to this kind of activities.
Pasquale Tridico
Okay, thank you very much. I think we can really close this joint session FISC/CONT. Thank you to the colleagues who remained all the time here. We had a very good discussion, very good hearings, very good questions. So thank you to all of you for participating.
The session is closed, so I just remind to the FISC colleagues that we are going to have the coordinator meeting on 14th of July at half past two.
Thank you very much.
Redner 20
We have with us today the European Public Prosecutor, Ms. Laura Codrușa Kövesi. We have the Director-General of OLAF, Mr. Ville Itälä. And we have the Chair of Eurofisc, Mr. Marc Bugnon. Thank you all for being here today. VAT fraud is a major problem for the EU budget and for the budgets of the Member States.
It is estimated that the EU loses billions of euros every year due to VAT fraud, and in particular carousel fraud. This is money that could be used for public services, for investment, and for the recovery of our economies.
Good afternoon, everyone. I would like to welcome you to this joint meeting of the Committee on Budgetary Control and the Subcommittee on Tax Matters. The main item on our agenda today is an exchange of views with the European Public Prosecutor's Office, the European Anti-Fraud Office, and Eurofisc on cooperation in the fight against VAT fraud in the EU. VAT fraud is a serious problem for the EU budget and for the budgets of the Member States. It is estimated that the EU loses billions of euros every year due to VAT fraud, and this money could be used to fund important public services and investments.
The fight against VAT fraud requires close cooperation between the different authorities involved, both at the national and at the EU level. Today, we have the opportunity to hear from the representatives of three key EU bodies that are involved in this fight: the EPPO, OLAF, and Eurofisc. We will hear about their work, their cooperation, and the challenges they face in their efforts to combat VAT fraud. I would like to welcome our speakers: Mr. Ville Itälä, Director-General of OLAF; Ms. Laura Codrușa Kövesi, European Chief Prosecutor; and Mr. Marc Bugnon, Chair of Eurofisc. Thank you all for being here today.
We will start with the presentations from our speakers, and then we will have a Q&A session with the members of the two committees. Mr. Itälä, the floor is yours.
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